Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:56:12 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #457 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Doc's training (Kes41355@aol.com) 2. Re: Manong Cacoy and Sakuting (Felipe Jocano) 3. Re: Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 (Felipe Jocano) 4. WEKAF sets convention 1p.m. on Sunday in Banilad (Ray Terry) 5. Environment and training (rich parsons) 6. Re: Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 (WoodyTX) 7. FMA movements in folk dance (Alvin Albano) 8. MA for drummers (Young Forest) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:41:56 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Doc's training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Doc, I, too, was blessed with instructors, from Alan McLuckie, who brought me into Serrada Eskrima, to Ben Berry, Garry Bowlds, and Rob McDonald, who put up with a lot from me and taught me the true spirit of Eskrima. Fred Degerberg's was the same type of environment back in the days that I spent a lot of time in Chicago. I was fortunate to have met some incredibly talented individuals there, including Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillio, Chris Kent, Mike Inay, Jimmy Tacosa, the list goes on. Man, have we been lucky or what? Kim Satterfield In a message dated 12/16/04 7:07:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima- request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Geo, > > I have no school I am not an instructor. I just train. I am lucky to live > in the middle of where martial arts is the best in the world. I can go any > direction on the clock and run into an awesome place to train from Guro Dan's, > Raw gym, Gracie JJ to Gene LaBelle's. If you love martial art you gotta > spend some time in L.A.. You will never live long enough to taste it all. > > Regards, > > Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. > Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:16:21 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manong Cacoy and Sakuting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Manong Jay :-) No, I'm not an FMA scholar, and I haven't done research on the dance/FMA connection, just offering an opinion...... Does the dance really have to be overtly martial to be able to extract useful FMA techniques from it? Given that dance teaches one how to move with grace, balance and rhythm, perhaps those are the real lessons rather than the so-called hidden techniques in the dance. Being able to move gracefully, with balance and with rhythm, at least to my lay opinion, is going to be very useful for martial training. Kind of teaching how to move better as contrasted to how to hit better ;-) While reading this thread and posting this, I remember that one of my friends was telling me about how he was contracted to teach martial arts movements to an actor/dancer/singer for a part in a movie. He said to me that teaching the guy was easier because he was such a good dancer, and therefore made the movements look real nice on screen. Again, another anecdote comes to mind; another friend of mine met an older teacher of the FMA at a tournament. The gentleman demonstrated his art in a dance form; moving the stick in a choreographed pattern such that he was dancing with the stick in hand. My friend found his demonstration impressive, since the grace, balance, rhythm and intent were there. In this case, the art was showcased in dance form. I would suppose that this is the other side of the coin; martial arts now shown as martial dance, and presumably, transformed back to martial arts again if necessary. Just a lay opinion, Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > I would tend to agree with him. The dance > (Sakuting) is pretty simple. But I mentioned it > only because it is the only folk dance I know with > FMA overtones, unless you really want another > stretch and say they danced dances like the > "Tinikling" and "Singkil" because it improved their > footwork, or the "Binasuan" because it improved > their hand balancing agility, etc.? . > > Any FMA scholars out there that have researched the > dance/FMA connection? > > Jay de Leon > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:14:28 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Earlier, I posted my take on Manong Jay's post (as in a couple of hours earlier :-)) Just to add to what I wrote earlier: There are two ways we can look at this - 1. There are indeed hidden martial techniques in the dances. In which case, how do we get them out? If indeed there was a key to extracting them, it was lost and no one knows now how to do that. (As I write this, I have this sinking feeling that somewhere sometime a video will come out showing the lost techniques of Filipino martial art/dance. Shudder.....) 2. There are no hidden martial techniques in the dances, just techniques performed as dance in order to express something, or simply to make it look more dynamic. Which is a greater realm of possibility, for me, but that's just my opinion. However, we really can't discount the possibility that dance (in whatever form) may help improve the other personal characteristics I mentioned earlier - balance, rhythm, grace, etc. So far, in this context, we've been discussing this topic from the perspective of the FMAs of kali/eskrima/arnis. But those three aren't the only FMAs. There are other FMAs, significantly kuntaw and silat. In these arts, dance does play a significant role, being what you show in public (as contrasted to what may actually be learned in private). Among the dance community, when you mention kuntaw, the first thing that comes to mind is the dance by which kuntaw is known. However, there is more than just the dance. One of my friends from the Art Studies Department is a kuntawan, as kuntaw practitioners are known. He showed me once the dance form...and then how it was transformed into the martial techniques. If I remember right, there was a key there but it had to be passed on from teacher to student. He only showed a few movements, but I remember being awed by them. I never did get the chance to learn from him though, more's the pity. This is also true of silat. Silat practitioners refer to silat as simply silat. Again, the dance is what you show in public, the techniques are learned privately. I remember that in 1993, I attended the 2nd Martial Arts Festival at the Manila Metropolitan Theater. One of those demonstrating was a guro of silat. His demonstration clearly showed the link between martial techniques and dance. NOTE: In using the word kuntaw, I am referring to kuntaw from the southern Philippines, practiced by, among others, the Tausug. This is different from the kuntaw lima-lima of GM Carlito Lanada. Some other observations: Maybe I'm stretching things here, but occasionally when referring to how well someone moved in sparring or tournament combat, the phrase one may hear every now and then is "Sinayawan niya!" Literally, He danced him :-) used in this sense to refer to someone who danced with his opponent and made him look like he was standing still. While going home earlier in a PUV (public utility vehicle, which is a UV used as a taxi :-) ), the radio was playing "Oye como va!" by Carlos Santana. I dunno if anyone here has tried it, but the rhythm seemed perfect for espada y daga :-) I was playing espada y daga with my fingers :-) to the tune, and oh boy, it felt nice....Now that's 5 to 10 minutes of solo espada y finger :-) Anyone else tried espada y daga with something similar? Regards, Bot, the double left-footer ;-) --- jay de leon wrote: > I would tend to agree with him. The dance > (Sakuting) is pretty simple. But I mentioned it > only because it is the only folk dance I know with > FMA overtones, unless you really want another > stretch and say they danced dances like the > "Tinikling" and "Singkil" because it improved their > footwork, or the "Binasuan" because it improved > their hand balancing agility, etc.? . > > Any FMA scholars out there that have researched the > dance/FMA connection? > > Jay de Leon > > > > > Ray Terry wrote:> ... I mentioned > this particular dance, "Sakuting" because every > > time I read somewhere that the old arnisadors hid > their FMA training > > in dances, I remember this particular dance. > > FWIW, I once asked Cacoy Canete about this > possibility. He knew the dance, > but thought someone would have to have a pretty > inventive mind to see > useful Eskrima hidden in this dance. > > Doesn't mean he is correct, just his opinion. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:21:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF sets convention 1p.m. on Sunday in Banilad Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net WEKAF sets convention 1p.m. on Sunday in Banilad The Freeman by Sona Mae V. Povadora December 17, 2004 Cebu's eskrima kali arnis grandmasters and masters will meet on December 19 at the World Eskrima Kali Arnis Federation (WEKAF) Headquarters at Sto. Nino Village in Banilad, Cebu City. Registration starts at 1 p.m. while the convention will commence at 2 p.m. The meeting of grandmasters will aim to renew old ties among the grandmasters and masters after their ties were severed due to different principles and strategies in promoting eskrima kali arnis. WEKAF chairman emeritus Diony Canete wanted to further the bonding of the grandmasters and masters in the name of Filipino Martial Arts. "The meeting will also be a simple Christmas gathering for the grandmasters and masters. We hardly meet each other because of promoting the art around the world and this is high time for us to take a break and share stories," Canete added. Also to be discussed are the preparations for the Sinulog International Arnis Championships, which will unwrap on January 14. The grandmasters will be taking positions in the organizational set up for upcoming Sinulog International Arnis Championships and the Officiating Seminar. "The grandmasters and masters will be having important roles in the upcoming Sinulog International Arnis Championships that is why we really need to meet and decide on different issues," Canete added. No registration fees will be collected from the grandmasters and masters who will be attending. They, however, are requested to share their fortes in the different arms of eskrima kali arnis. Interested parties who would like to join the Grandmasters and Masters Convention are asked to call 346-0433 for further details. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:52:12 -0800 (PST) From: rich parsons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Environment and training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Message: 1 > From: "Jamie Denny" > To: > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] The worst place in the world > Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:23:17 -0000 > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > People have mentioned that living in "tough places" > has not made them > better fighters but then go on to say how the > experiences have allowed > them to deal with and survive things happening on > the street. > Are these not one and them same ?. I view myself as > a better fighter > because of the things that have happened to me in > the past. I have > gained some valuable experience in dealing with > attacks on the street > these have therefore better equipment me in > altercations. Perhaps if it > was an arranged match with rules the outcome may be > different. > Hope that made sense > > Thanks > > J > > iPat wrote:just thinking - with > the recent > references to growing up in tough > places, does it really matter where you are? a fist > is a fist after > all. > While growing up in my late teens and twenties, I did some bouncing and security work in Flint Mi, during the mid to late 1980's. Flint at the tiem was voted in numerous polls as the worst place to live, due to violence and other economic factors. I believe this did help me with my training and being able to handle or help deal with other situations. It made me very aware of my environment and what people were doing, and how. I agree a fist is a fist, yet, to know that there a four or 20 of them coming and from where, and what they are carrying besides a fist, makes a difference. If you do not need to train this, then you may not, (* you may get the same level hence the "May" *) get the same personal training or feedback from their training. Just my thoughts and comments. Rich Parsons FMA Club __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:16:09 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If there are martial elements in a Filipino dance, it would by no means be the first culture to do so. Almost every culture in which the fighting arts are suppressed develops innovative methods of retention/instruction. I have very limited exposure to the Filipino culture outside of the fighting arts. But given the history of the islands and the way in which other cultures have dealt with the suppression of martial arts, I would almost expect these hidden elements to be there. WoodyTX On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:14:28 -0800 (PST), Felipe Jocano wrote: > Earlier, I posted my take on Manong Jay's post (as in > a couple of hours earlier :-)) Just to add to what I > wrote earlier: > > There are two ways we can look at this - > > 1. There are indeed hidden martial techniques in the > dances. (snip) > > 2. There are no hidden martial techniques in the > dances, just techniques performed as dance in order to > express something, or simply to make it look more > dynamic. Which is a greater realm of possibility, for > me, but that's just my opinion. (snip) --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:55:50 -0800 (PST) From: Alvin Albano To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA movements in folk dance Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings to all, I have not written in for a quite some time, so I hope you find value in my contribution below. Jay de Leon wrote: Any FMA scholars out there that have researched the dance/FMA connection? *** While Sakuting and Singkil is well known as part of the Philippine folk dances that incorporate stick or sword movements, there are quite a few others. For many years, I was part of a dance group called Likha Pilipino Folk Ensemble (http://www.likha.org). One year, part of our big annual performance centered on a legend called "Indarapatra", in which the main character goes to slay a mythical monster using his sword. While many of the movements were indeed highly stylized, a viewer could not mistake FMA movements. The tribal dance "Blit Bilaan" tells the story of a love triangle, with two male dancers using malong (a Filipino sari) as their props/weapons. Then there are many dances from the southern Philippines that have martial movements. One dance in particular (I don't recall the name, and if I did, I would probably have misspelled it anyway) has very obvious gunting (scissor) movements with a short sword. In another such group of tribal dances telling of a legend or story, suitors to the datu's daughter tried impressing her with singing, dancing, or martial prowess with a spear. Lastly, more spear movements can be seen in Kalinga dances. The above examples are only from my personal experience, so I'm sure there are many more out there. I can't say these particular dances intentionally incorporated hidden FMA movements like some out there would say; the movements were integral to the stories told by the dances. There are plethora of cultural dances from the many regions of the Philippines. Anytime your local Filipino cultural dance group does a big performance, it would be good to watch and see if you can find recognizable movements. But really, much of what you'd find is very subtle, so don't always expect to see dedicated warrior dances. Though depending on dances chosen by the choreographer for that performance, you might. Will you see all your system's angles and disarms and other techniques? Probably not, in my experience. None of the dances I've seen or heard about were practiced for the *sole purpose of cataloging technique*, though they may be some out there. But as with any dance, movements included or interpreted are soley the choice of the original cultural group through the years or the choreographer needing to condense/re-present the spirit and meaning of the dance. While many dances are passed down with little variation through generations, dance, like martial art, is a fluid living art form. Just as oral history has its value in commemorating and preserving cultural and martial heritage, so do other forms of expression such as dance. And to see martial arts seemlessly woven into Filipino folk dance is a beautiful thing to watch. Happy Holidays to you and your loved ones from the Albano School of Eskrima. Alvin Albano ASE / IESA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:51:11 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] MA for drummers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Badger, would you elaborate more please on your "MA for Drummers" >workshops? Certainly. We can do this with sticks or empty hands, although for lack of intimidation sake, one might want to start with just empty hands. Sticks add that nice stacatto high end to the overall sound, so for aesthetic sense, don't discount sticks entirely. Basically, we are trying to relate their skills in picking up rhythms, and translate that to offense or defense. F'rinstance, take a simple drill where one person does three straight punches (and the partner does three palm blocks), then three palm blocks (while the partner does three straight punches). Have half the participants doing the drill, while the others drum doum doum doum tek tek tek. Likewise, take a back-and-forth block, check, counter, and match that with the basic djembe 6-beat rhythm doum teka doum teka. Take any sinawali pattern, linking it with the corresponding drum beat. A doum beat could be a midsection strike, and a tek beat a head strike. A fun way to do it is to not explain the pattern, but have the drummers start the beat and let the strikers figure it out. As things progress, you can start adding beats together - three bars of one beat, switch to four bars of another beat, and back. Key the beats to things other than strikes by using different instruments if you have something handy, like everytime they hear the cow bell, add in a kick to the other guy's shin. Change the tempo. Keep rotating the participants in and out to keep things fresh. Finish with a drum jam. Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest