Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 03:03:32 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #460 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: FMA movements in folk dance (Felipe Jocano) 3. Music & FMA (L. E.) 4. Rhythm & Bruise (Buz Grover) 5. Re: in re to questions about " the dance" (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: FMA Dance Form (Felipe Jocano) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:09:56 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI Woody, And yet, how would we know? It is indeed reasonable to expect this to take place, but in many clubs and associations here, there is very little expression of this connection between martial art and dance, except for the aforementioned kuntaw and silat. So..... 1. If these hidden elements are indeed present, who now living has the key to bringing them out into the open? Who can teach these two disparate arts and bring them together? Along these lines, Alvin Albano's and Gat Puno's posts are quite interesting. 2. But it is equally possible that these elements are simply incorporated into the dance in order to better tell a story, rather than hiding them from the Spaniards. I'm more inclined to this opinion, since as taught at present, these dances are not more than dances, albeit with martial elements. In order to hide the arts, there are other ways to equally effectively conceal this knowledge. But that's just my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong too. I'm keeping an open mind on this since new information can come along, in which case, better to accept this too. Regards, Bot --- WoodyTX wrote: > If there are martial elements in a Filipino dance, > it would by no > means be the first culture to do so. Almost every > culture in which > the fighting arts are suppressed develops innovative > methods of > retention/instruction. > > I have very limited exposure to the Filipino culture > outside of the > fighting arts. But given the history of the islands > and the way in > which other cultures have dealt with the suppression > of martial arts, > I would almost expect these hidden elements to be > there. > > WoodyTX > > > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:14:28 -0800 (PST), Felipe > Jocano > wrote: > > Earlier, I posted my take on Manong Jay's post (as > in > > a couple of hours earlier :-)) Just to add to what > I > > wrote earlier: > > > > There are two ways we can look at this - > > > > 1. There are indeed hidden martial techniques in > the > > dances. (snip) > > > > 2. There are no hidden martial techniques in the > > dances, just techniques performed as dance in > order to > > express something, or simply to make it look more > > dynamic. Which is a greater realm of possibility, > for > > me, but that's just my opinion. (snip) > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:23:17 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FMA movements in folk dance To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI Alvin, --- Alvin Albano wrote: > Greetings to all, > I have not written in for a quite some time, so I > hope you find value in my > contribution below. > > > Then there are many dances from the southern > Philippines that have martial > movements. One dance in particular (I don't recall > the name, and if I did, I > would probably have misspelled it anyway) has very > obvious gunting (scissor) > movements with a short sword. Would this be the langka-kuntaw or the sagayan? > > The above examples are only from my personal > experience, so I'm sure there are > many more out there. I can't say these particular > dances intentionally > incorporated hidden FMA movements like some out > there would say; the movements > were integral to the stories told by the dances. > > There are plethora of cultural dances from the many > regions of the Philippines. > Anytime your local Filipino cultural dance group > does a big performance, it > would be good to watch and see if you can find > recognizable movements. But > really, much of what you'd find is very subtle, so > don't always expect to see > dedicated warrior dances. Though depending on > dances chosen by the > choreographer for that performance, you might. > > Will you see all your system's angles and disarms > and other techniques? > Probably not, in my experience. None of the dances > I've seen or heard about > were practiced for the *sole purpose of cataloging > technique*, though they may > be some out there. But as with any dance, movements > included or interpreted > are soley the choice of the original cultural group > through the years or the > choreographer needing to condense/re-present the > spirit and meaning of the > dance. While many dances are passed down with > little variation through > generations, dance, like martial art, is a fluid > living art form. > > Just as oral history has its value in commemorating > and preserving cultural and > martial heritage, so do other forms of expression > such as dance. And to see > martial arts seemlessly woven into Filipino folk > dance is a beautiful thing to > watch. Ths part of your post is interesting....Either the martial elements were so well concealed that their meanings have been lost or else the were simply incorporated to make the dances more attractive or to better tell a story. One way or the other, I suppose. One comment of yours that interests me is your statement about the interpretation of the dances by the choreographer. Individual interpretations can cause changes from troupe to troupe over time. It would be interesting to find out more, perhaps by compiling oral histories of the different dances, with attention on their connection to martial arts. Bot __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "L. E." To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 09:23:59 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Music & FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings to all! Just a small contribution to the topic of music, do any of you recall the movie which starred Instructor Graciela Casillas titled "Fire In The Night". She was taught the FMAs first as a dance form. I am fortunate to have played a number of reed & string instruments, & was also fond of being a percussionist in my teens. I have spoken to Taiko drum groups who have credited the incorporation of Eskrima movements into their performances (they claim to have learned from Suro Mike Inay?). In my humble & modest experience, rythym and understanding broken rythym both lead themselves to a better understanding of FMA or for that matter any type of physical endeavor. Even novice students with no sense of rythym or coordination can initially baffle intermediate players. Of course the reverse can also be said. While working in the grape vineyards in Central CA, one of my duties was to apply "medicine (chemical sealant)" to freshly cut vines. We used a cotton rag tied to the end of short stick which was dipped in the chemical sealant. I "tipped" several thousand ends of cut vines in an 8 hour work day during my Christmas vacation from HS & College. Listening to music on a walkman, helped increase my speed, timing, rythym, & tempo. Also, having participated in folk dances like the Sakuting, Pandango sa ilaw, Tinikling have influenced my training. I read somewhere that Bruce Lee thought that if Mikhail Barishinikov learned to kick that he would have been a formidable fighter. Those of you who know of the famous "Coconut Dance" can see the value of slapping ones on body while delivering weapon strikes. How about Brazilian Capoieristas or Indonesian & Southern Philippine practioners performing martial dance (karenza) to traditional Kulingtang. The ties with Ballet & Fencing/Savate & African/Native American Warrior Tribal Dances. And even if we try, we cannot forgetTae Bo which will be remembered as popular part of the Martial Arts training landscape. The thing that I find amusing is that instrumentalist are first attracted to a song's "beat", rythym, bass pattern, lead licks etc... On the other hand lyricists focus on words. Even then, spoken words have a flow or pattern to them, which can lead one to investigation. I just like music (all music) as do my instructors & friends. Additionally, not forgetting that it makes a work day, a car drive, a flight or boring chore or workout (weights, calisthenic...) go by so much faster. An endorphic attitude & physical stimulant! Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year everyone! Maraming salamat, Maligayang Pasko, Lino Espejo --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:51:14 -0500 From: Buz Grover To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Rhythm & Bruise Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've been enjoying the sundry music and rhythm threads circulating of late. While finishing up my undergrad a while back I had to knock out three fine art credits. The choice boiled down to European architecture or modern dance; choosing between a septuagenerian droning on about Old World cathedrals or a room full of young ladies bounding about in leotards was pretty easy. The class proved to be eye-opening. Dance had always been something a date would chide me into after three drinks; never really understood what all the fuss was about. That ignorance combined with problems I have with rote memory left me foundering in class at first. Finally started pretending the movements I was supposed to make were very unlikely responses to very unlikely attacks, a device that amused my teacher greatly. Discovered dance is a language, one I could haltingly speak, albeit with a very strong MA accent. As for music, when intense activity is called for I find one of three tunes usually playing in my head. ZZ Top's "LaGrange" is the all purpose get busy tune, Mountain's "Mississippi Queen" starts up when a burst of energy is needed, while Jeff Beck's "Goin' Down" plays when I gotta dig myself out of a hole. Find my footwork usually follows the percussion and bass line while my upper body follows the lead guitar. Been doing some solo training to Medeski, Martin, and Wood with interesting, and occasionally awful results. Keep meaning to pick up on some Dave Brubeck. He has some pieces written in wacky time like 13/9 and such; always wondered what it would be like to try to train to something odd like that. Probably KO myself or something. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:30:42 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] in re to questions about " the dance" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Guro Marsh, yes is my answer ...there is > combative applications in the dances but its not > something that is tossed out there even to devout > students and i cant blame that i would keep it to > myself also or there would be video tapes lol hope > that helps > what I hope not to see are videos about Super Tactical Advanced Combat Tinikling. Or some such commercial monstrosity :-) On a more serious note, while I incline towards being skeptical for now (that can change), it's interesting to know that your teacher knows both the martial and dance forms and can teach the connection between them. I am interested in knowing how he does that...without your having to break any promises made to him, of course. Regards, Bot __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:43:06 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FMA Dance Form To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Magandang hapon po, Gat Puno, Although I am inclined to be skeptical about the connection between folk dance and arnis, for now at least, I believe in keeping an open mind so as to learn new things. Having said that, I was interested in what you said below about the way the different dances concealed various elements of martial arts. Knowing about your background in martial arts, traditional folk theater and dance, I would like to ask: When learning these dances, were you taught these concealed elements? Also, in your training curriculum, do you teach these dances together with the martial arts? I am curious since even back here in the Philippines, not many people know both art forms and teach them together. At least in Metro Manila. Of course that doesn't say much since Metro Manila is not the Philippines :-). Given the premise that the dances conceal various martial elements, not many people know the keys to exposing them, perhaps because the focus was on the dance, with the martial elements gradually forgotten. Gumagalang, Bot P.S. I am looking forward to the publication of your book, "Moro-moro: The shroud of Arnis de Mano." Hope that it would be made available here too. I am sure we can learn a lot from it. --- GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Bot, and Guro Jay De Leon, > > I just want to add some of the very special note. > about the topic of FMA > Dance. Some of the Folk dances has some martial arts > value, but we are all > forgetting the facts, that the FMA is hidden to the > Combat Dance of Moro-moro play. > The Carenza, Pamamltacia, Halad, and other names for > the Shadow dance like > stick fighting, Bolo fighting and etc. > > This is where the beauty of the true artistic form > of FMA. If time permit my > book of "Moro-moro" will be available for everyone > by2005. In Titled, The > MORO-MORO The Shroud of Arnis De Mano.. Its includes > 10 sets of Combat dance form > in Espada y Daga and 10 Set of Combat dance in Solo > Baston and one set each > sample Combat dance in Doble Baston, Kalasag y > Baston and Sibat. > > This Dance form is ideal form to practiced Solo with > partner or multi > partner. > > In regards of the other Dance, try the itik-itik > dance (is a dance practice > of breaking the the neck of a duck, which represent > the wrist and elbow break. > The Sakuting, is the dance of weilding the Sinawali > techniques, The Banko > Dance is training the balance of FMA practitioner, > preparation for the Rice Field > Combat, There more there the Pandanngo sa Ilaw, > practicing the reverse lock, > escape from ane wrist grab and locks. The Maglaltik, > the energy point of the > Mano-mano fighter getting ready for battle, they > hitting those point of the > body to keep the body warmed and flexible. > What about the old forgotten dance of "Sabong" two > man or more, wearing the > Rooster attire and and holding knife, sometimes are > only one knife often time > you see two knifes. Their tried to dance in Drum and > bamboo bit, and try to cut > each others. This is some of the evidently seen FMA > Dance forn in the > Filipino Folk Dance. > > Hope it's help. > > Good day, > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > GAT Group International > Laguna Arnis Federation International > Harimaw Buno Federation > Hilot Research Center USA > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest