Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:15:41 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #461 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 (WoodyTX) 2. Re: Rhythm & Bruise (WoodyTX) 3. Re: San Jose Ray (fma-ers in the Santa Clara (gints@worldnet.att.net) 4. Guro #12 Uncle Ray... (John Montes) 5. Re: re: Eskrima for Self Defense (iPat) 6. Re: Environment and training (iPat) 7. Re: Rhythm & Bruise (Felipe Jocano) 8. Re: The FMA/dance connection (Felipe Jocano) 9. FMA Dance/Filipino Folk Dance (GatPuno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:00:55 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manong Cacoy and Sakuting - reply part 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good point. While speaking in general terms (I wouldn't think of trying to tell anyone about his own culture), I believe that these hidden elements can be recognized by practitioners of the art. The Spaniards of the time (to use an example) would not have recognized the movements, as they were not exposed to them in any environment but the battlefield. I do not believe that a significant quantity of lost knowledge could be "rediscovered" through the interpretation of cultural dances. But I would expect that a banned martial art would find its way into dance or other apparently innocuous movement (like Tai Chi, Capoeira, etc). As you say, an open mind is the best approach. WoodyTX On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:09:56 -0800 (PST), Felipe Jocano wrote: > HI Woody, > > And yet, how would we know? It is indeed reasonable to > expect this to take place, but in many clubs and > associations here, there is very little expression of > this connection between martial art and dance, except > for the aforementioned kuntaw and silat. So..... > 1. If these hidden elements are indeed present, who > now living has the key to bringing them out into the > open? Who can teach these two disparate arts and bring > them together? Along these lines, Alvin Albano's and > Gat Puno's posts are quite interesting. > 2. But it is equally possible that these elements are > simply incorporated into the dance in order to better > tell a story, rather than hiding them from the > Spaniards. I'm more inclined to this opinion, since as > taught at present, these dances are not more than > dances, albeit with martial elements. In order to hide > the arts, there are other ways to equally effectively > conceal this knowledge. > But that's just my opinion. Of course, I could be > wrong too. I'm keeping an open mind on this since new > information can come along, in which case, better to > accept this too. > Regards, > Bot --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:20:37 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Rhythm & Bruise Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Wow, a Medeski, Martin, & Wood reference.... At a live show in Austin, Wood (bass) broke the bridge on a standing bass during the free-form solo, and Medeski (keyboards) flawlessly picked up the solo until Wood could switch to an electric bass. There's at least one lesson there. On a number of occasions, we did grappling work to a very MM&W-like jazz band, Hot Buttered Rhythm, with mixed results. Some students couldn't "get it". Others began to relax and go with the flow. Again, there's at least one lesson there. Personally, I can't hear Pantera without thinking of Vale Tudo-style fighting, or The Crystal Method without thinking of swinging a stick. Any other favorite training songs out there? WoodyTX On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:51:14 -0500, Buz Grover wrote: (snip) > As for music, when intense activity is called for I find one of three > tunes usually playing in my head. ZZ Top's "LaGrange" is the all > purpose get busy tune, Mountain's "Mississippi Queen" starts up when a > burst of energy is needed, while Jeff Beck's "Goin' Down" plays when I > gotta dig myself out of a hole. Find my footwork usually follows the > percussion and bass line while my upper body follows the lead guitar. > Been doing some solo training to Medeski, Martin, and Wood with > interesting, and occasionally awful results. Keep meaning to pick up on > some Dave Brubeck. He has some pieces written in wacky time like 13/9 > and such; always wondered what it would be like to try to train to > something odd like that. Probably KO myself or something. > > Regards, > > Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 3 From: gints@att.net (gints@worldnet.att.net) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 03:22:27 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: San Jose Ray (fma-ers in the Santa Clara Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry > If you're at Foothill then you're not too far from Gints' group up in > Redwood City. You might find some crazies up there to have fun with. Gints? Thanks, Ray. I don't have an FMA training group, but I hold a regular weapons sparring event every other Tuesday at 8pm in Menlo Park. If anyone is interested in checking out the action, please email me, and I'll add you to my event mailing list for schedules. The next session is on Tuesday January 4. There is no charge for the event, and I like to keep the group fresh with lots of new attendees. Some fight at the Dog Brother events while others just like to be a super hero for a night. Here is a web site with (dreadfully outdated) photos. http://home.att.net/~gints/GFC.htm Hope to see some new faces this year, Gints --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:55:18 -0800 (PST) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Guro #12 Uncle Ray... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cool! I didn't even know that! I did know that he was in the school about the same time as Guro Garry Bowlds, and John Peterson. My uncle Mike Ecdao took some classes also, but I think the bulk of his training stems from uncle Ray "the other San Jose Ray" :D ... Hey maybe us Silicon Valley cats can have a BBQ or somethin in the spring... somethin to think about! Peace & Blessings, ~John --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:04:54 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Eskrima for Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net c'mon Macyoung, smaller volume, no waffling straight to the point! ; ) On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:46:51 -0700, Marc Macyoung > > YIKES! You just asked a question that if you asked a gender psychologist, a > biophysiological pyschologist, a cognative psychologist and a behavioral > psychologist you would not only get four different answers, but you'd > probably get a donnybrook worse than if you asked "who teaches "real" JKD?" groan > I can give you a good layman's introduction by pointing you towards ..........Because the more you know, the more > complex it all becomes. sure does. But seriously, you dont expect me to read all this do you. Thats why you are here, to distill it for me so i dont have to make an effort! did a mixed WSD session last week and had a variety of ages. It threw me a bit as suddenly i found i was having to address it differently to the different ages! Where i had been looking to deal with awareness i resorted to release techniques to keep the group in check. The difference in approaching 16 year old girls and older women suddenly seemed so huge. My sons 16 so i know what their social culture is to a certain degree and its a wide departure from that of older women. i survived...just. -- iPat live for today, live for tomorrow --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:28:58 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Environment and training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree that each place is a different environment and so has its own inherent dangers. By living in a place of conflict you will tune in more so i dont see how you can compare or grade a calcutta against a Compton. living in a sleepy village in Cambridgeshire in england or a croft in the highlands of Scotland may not prepare you for the dangers of the mass urban sprawl and the dangers that brings with the vying for position on the social ladder of survival. the person in the bad slums of calcutta may well adapt quicker to the bad slums of LA or Rio or...etc it may be that the risk of harm by violence may increase because of the density of population, but it doesnt mean that it cant happen in the sleepy village or desolate crofts. The probability rating may change depending on location and custom but the consequences are still the same. On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:52:12 -0800 (PST), rich parsons > While growing up in my late teens and twenties, I did > some bouncing and security work in Flint Mi, during > the mid to late 1980's. Flint at the tiem was voted in > numerous polls as the worst place to live, due to > violence and other economic factors. I believe this > did help me with my training and being able to handle > or help deal with other situations. It made me very > aware of my environment and what people were doing, > and how. I agree a fist is a fist, yet, to know that > there a four or 20 of them coming and from where, and > what they are carrying besides a fist, makes a > difference. If you do not need to train this, then you > may not, (* you may get the same level hence the "May" > *) get the same personal training or feedback from > their training. > > Just my thoughts and comments. > > Rich Parsons > FMA Club -- iPat live for today, live for tomorrow --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 03:43:40 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Rhythm & Bruise To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ah memories. 20+ years ago as an undergraduate student in the University of the Philippines, I signed up for a PE class in karate. The space next to our room was occupied by a social dance class. During our class time, some of the students would be rehearsing their steps before their class time. One day, when our teacher was not around, we were doing the first kata in the series. The couple(s) next door chose to put on the cha-cha record (yes it was that long ago :-)), and so it went. Loud cha-cha rhythm that quite naturally affected us. Before we knew it, we were doing the kata to the cha-cha beat. Try and imagine - ta-ta-ra-ta-ra-ra, tarata, tara (Uh!) and doing forward step down block, forward step lunge punch.....Naturally, someone piped up, "Don't we all dance nicely!" (Ang galing natin sumayaw, ah!). That was it, no more practice for the rest of the hour. :-) Myself, I tend to rock. I once tried doing free-flow stick movements to "Silver Surfer," very nice experience.... Regards, Bot --- Buz Grover wrote: > I've been enjoying the sundry music and rhythm > threads circulating of > late. While finishing up my undergrad a while back I > had to knock out > three fine art credits. The choice boiled down to > European architecture > or modern dance; choosing between a septuagenerian > droning on about Old > World cathedrals or a room full of young ladies > bounding about in > leotards was pretty easy. > > The class proved to be eye-opening. Dance had always > been something a > date would chide me into after three drinks; never > really understood > what all the fuss was about. That ignorance combined > with problems I > have with rote memory left me foundering in class at > first. Finally > started pretending the movements I was supposed to > make were very > unlikely responses to very unlikely attacks, a > device that amused my > teacher greatly. Discovered dance is a language, one > I could haltingly > speak, albeit with a very strong MA accent. > > As for music, when intense activity is called for I > find one of three > tunes usually playing in my head. ZZ Top's > "LaGrange" is the all > purpose get busy tune, Mountain's "Mississippi > Queen" starts up when a > burst of energy is needed, while Jeff Beck's "Goin' > Down" plays when I > gotta dig myself out of a hole. Find my footwork > usually follows the > percussion and bass line while my upper body follows > the lead guitar. > Been doing some solo training to Medeski, Martin, > and Wood with > interesting, and occasionally awful results. Keep > meaning to pick up on > some Dave Brubeck. He has some pieces written in > wacky time like 13/9 > and such; always wondered what it would be like to > try to train to > something odd like that. Probably KO myself or > something. > > Regards, > > Buz Grover > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 03:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The FMA/dance connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Manong Jay :-) While we've been discussing the dance/FMA connection, I almost forgot to mention that there is an excellent book by Sally Ann Ness on the Sinulog of Cebu. It's an ethnographic exploration of the dance, the festival itself, the immediate social context and the symbolic meanings of the dance and the festival. I mention this because in one of the chapters there is mention of GM Cacoy and how the flow of eskrima is akin to the flow of the sinulog. I forgot the exact title, but it's a very interesting read. I think it was published by the UNiversity of Pennsylvania Press (I hope I got that right) Regards, Bot __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 9 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:01:09 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA Dance/Filipino Folk Dance Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot, Magandang araw din sayo, at pauna na Maligayang Pasko. I don't blame you by being skeptical about it. Since most of this theory is has been buried in the sand of time. Part to blame is us and the old Maestro, s that hid the arts so well even to the eyes or their own people. Yes, I teach these dances part of my curriculum. I was not expose to it, till I joined the group of the "Paete Moro-moro or Zarsuela" and the Bukang Liwayway Balagtasan Groups a group of talented Poet. It's an eye opening experience to be with all Veterans Moro-moro players. Every folk dance that they taught to us is surprisingly have an effective application in practical Combat application. The relation of every movement that you can used defensively and offensive as well. It wasn't few years later, I realized the value of it. In early time, I taught it's a waste of time to practice such movement, wow, I was wrong. You know when your young and Western Music and dance is big all over the country, you don't want to be stock practicing folk dance. All we want as young teenager is want to learn how to rocks and boogie. But when I was first taught the first Combat Dance, I said wow that amazing I. Have practiced ever since. We learned 30 set of Moro-moro dance plus all the folk dances that they believe to be valuable additional exercises in footwork, and hand rhythm, speed and timing. Today, I only teaches 20 set of Moro-moro to my student and save the 21-30 for the few patient students. 10 Set of Moro-moro, taught us the Basic strikes, defenses, footwork, rhythm and timing and how to move long to close range position. The 11to 15 teahes you the Close range combination, and the 15 to 20 is mastering the Largo mano with the insertion of Corto range. Boot, I was not trained to convinced others, I really don't care who believed me or not, I was trained to show others the effectiveness of FMA in a way of I was taught, dancing is part of it, environmental training is part of it, like the Eskrima sa Banko (Bench Stick Fighting). But I do want to keep making noise about it, for others to see and heard what FMA is all about. I thank you for being honest to your question, I admire your thought, and intelligent mind. In regards of the Moro-moro Book, I am dealing with two well know publishers, If we dont agree to the proposal, I might published it there in PI first. Salamat uli, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA > Magandang hapon po, Gat Puno, > Although I am inclined to be skeptical about the > connection between folk dance and arnis, for now at > least, I believe in keeping an open mind so as to > learn new things. > Having said that, I was interested in what you said > below about the way the different dances concealed > various elements of martial arts. Knowing about your > background in martial arts, traditional folk theater > and dance, I would like to ask: When learning these > dances, were you taught these concealed elements? > Also, in your training curriculum, do you teach these > dances together with the martial arts? > I am curious since even back here in the Philippines, > not many people know both art forms and teach them > together. At least in Metro Manila. Of course that > doesn't say much since Metro Manila is not the > Philippines :-). Given the premise that the dances > conceal various martial elements, not many people know > the keys to exposing them, perhaps because the focus > was on the dance, with the martial elements gradually > forgotten. > > Gumagalang, > > Bot > > P.S. I am looking forward to the publication of your > book, "Moro-moro: The shroud of Arnis de Mano." Hope > that it would be made available here too. I am sure we > can learn a lot from it. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest