Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:49:15 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #465 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ED V.11 #463 - WEKAF Tournaments and Sparring (Bart Hubbard) 2. Re: At a loss, (Johnaleen) 3. tournament/ realistic sparring (John Titus) 4. RE: tournament questio (sgt evans) 5. Re: Re: At a loss, (WoodyTX) 6. Re: Re: At a loss, (iPat) 7. Sparring and more (GatPuno@aol.com) 8. Re: Re: ED V.11 #463 - WEKAF Tournaments and Sparring (WoodyTX) 9. Albano School of Eskrima (Alvin Albano) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:25:04 -0800 (PST) From: Bart Hubbard To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: ED V.11 #463 - WEKAF Tournaments and Sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey There, WEKAF style sparring gets a lot of heat. The fact is that WEKAF rules do allow for people to employ armor instead of skill. Very often I see people sacrifice a headshot so that they can get a loud body shot. I also see people block with highly armored arms instead of parrying or using technique and footwork to avoid being hit. On top of that, judging WEKAF is actually very complicated and sometimes the judges have little or no experience in the ring themselves or are unfamiliar with the ins and outs of the WEKAF rules. The very types of common things that frustrate people: sacrifice hits, no defense, tapping hits, 3 or more light hits to the same spot, etc. are actually punished by the WEKAF rules. Also the competitors themselves are often not familiar with the rules, so they don't know when to complain or contest. They also often have no idea why they may have won or lost. This last summer I flew to the Philippines and volunteered to judge at the WEKAF World Championship tournament. I judged 3 days for 10 to 14 hours each day for the duration of the tournament. It was needless to say exhausting, but also it gave me great insight into the WEKAF rules and what I think are some of the good points about WEKAF sparring. As far as realism goes, you have to consider what category of situation you are in on a daily basis. By that I mean are you a soldier, a law enforcement officer, or a civilian. If you are a soldier and your object is to kill people, then WEKAF sparring is not as realistic to you although it would still develop good skills. If you are a civilian or an LEO then it is quite realistic. In general civilians and LEO's cannot strike the opponent's back, stab them, or strike a downed opponent. If you do, you may survive, but you will also go to jail. I know someone myself who is serving "life + 20 years w/o parole" for stabbing a man in self defense in Colorado. He responded with force that was not in proportion to the seriousness of the attack. That is something that you have to take into account in your training. WEKAF is quite realistic in that manner. Striking to the arms, thighs, hands, and trunk are exactly the places that LEO's and security personnel are allowed to hit people with a baton. Thrusting to any of the major organs has legal precedent to be construed as using deadly force. In my opinion WEKAF training is a valuable tool if you let it be. When I fight in WEKAF I use the minimal amount of gear possible. I cover my joints, groin, and head. I use thin gloves that offer very little protection. And then of course I use the body gear. I encourage my students to do the same. But I do encourage them to cover up bruises and injuries. I don't train myself to "stand and deliver" and absorb hits like crazy. I train to move around and not get hit. I fought in a tournament last weekend and I suffered no bruising to my upper body, although I did take a hit to the leg. The fat bruise is a good reminder to move my leg. Also when we're in class we don't train for a tournament win, we train for the "everyday" possiblity that we might need to use the art to defend ourselves. Winning a championship in a tournament does not mean you were the best fighter there. It means that you played the game the best according to what the judges believed. Have you expressed your frustrations to your teacher? What have they offered as advice? Any vehicle for personal growth that is worthwhile will not destroy the people who participate in it. A free for all tournament simply does not exist. Even the Dog Brothers' Gathering is not something that is altogether realistic in the sense that I think you mean. It is rougher and tougher than WEKAF for sure, but you can't be "friends at the end of the day" with someone you just put in a coma. So blows are pulled even there. I would encourage you to go on and give that a try. Talk to the people that you're fighting with so that they know what level you're at and they will help you do the best you can do. But I also would encourage you not to give up on WEKAF and instead try changing your mindset about what it is that's being accomplished. Good Luck. ===== Be Cool. Bart Hubbard Capital Doce Pares www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Johnaleen" To: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:31:17 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: At a loss, Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Marc Macyoung" Wrote" One of my more memorable acts of stepping on my dick was being in a honky tonk where "friendly fights" were the rule and dropping a guy too fast who got in my face. We didn't fight to display where I'm from, we went in to hurt the dude and end it -- that was my unconsious assumption and strategy. I savaged the dude in about four moves and he fell down. The entire bar stood up and started towards me for what I had just done. Oops... ********** Your right, that's a really good example of poor judgment, but.... I have a few questions and i cant help myself here, Because HONESTLY i am at an utter loss by your post right now and really sort of confused. Tell me, are you saying that people have to learn the lesson by creating poor examples in there life based on there lack of restraint and poor judgement and in the end it makes them better men? or humans? what is the point of that story? And other then learning that you had poor judgement at the time, and put your self at risk unnecessarily " one of the frist rules of SDA dont put your self at risk if you dont have to" can you explain to me why you related this tale? And what is a friendly fight? I dont get that part either.... Can you explain? The other thing is, to be honest, doing things with poor judgment or on automatic based on pre conditioning of life time trauma instances is one of the reasons we have so much reoccurring victimization. But, that's part of long term training or should be, we are trying to condition our responses by pre conditioning our minds to do or act appropriately in a set instance of circumstances, even down to a minimal response. But if you look at it, all your doing is working it out before hand and being prepared, again back to core SDA Training Tactics, and sound judgment, that really doesn't have to be learned by going into bars and getting into Friendly fights. Does it? If it does then well, hell..... now what... Oh and did it hurt when you stepped on your dick? and were you naked at the time, that short, on your knees or was it the reason they wanted to fight you and got in your face or what? Ms. J... --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Titus" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:44:20 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] tournament/ realistic sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i've just moved away from my old school and i really miss the sparring (the doing, not the next morning). i'm only able to train fma on a limited basis now. some good sparring would help bridge the huge gap between what i 'know' and what i can do. btw, a web search showed me a 'siete pares' group- anybody heard of them? thank you --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "sgt evans" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] tournament questio Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:54:44 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For other cops reading this forum don't waste ur time with wekaf events. If you want you should check out our fullcontact event in May. Master Terry names it the Cinco da Mayo party but we just call it a chance to have fun with issue batons. Bill >i have participated in WEKAF style events but was dismayed at the rules- >with all the armor, it seemed odd to prohibit live hand striking or >stabbing >techniques. does anyone know of any organizations or websites that promote >more realistic competition? i don't know if my skill level is high enough >to >fight in a 'gathering of the pack', but am definitely interested in the >realism of the sparring. thank you. >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:56:26 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: At a loss, Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (WoodyTX goes and makes some popcorn.) Y'all want some? This oughta be interesting, to say the least. WoodyTX On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:31:17 -0800, Johnaleen wrote: > "Marc Macyoung" Wrote" > One of my more memorable acts of stepping on my dick was being in a honky > tonk where > "friendly fights" were the rule and dropping a guy too fast who got in my > face. We didn't fight to display where I'm from, we went in to hurt the dude > and end it -- that was my unconsious assumption and strategy. I savaged the > dude in about four moves and he fell down. The entire bar stood up and > started towards me for what I had just done. Oops... > ********** > > Your right, that's a really good example of poor judgment, but.... I have a > few questions and i cant help myself here, Because HONESTLY i am at an utter > loss by your post right now and really sort of confused. > > Tell me, are you saying that people have to learn the lesson by creating > poor examples in there life based on there lack of restraint and poor > judgement and in the end it makes them better men? or humans? what is the > point of that story? And other then learning that you had poor judgement at > the time, and put your self at risk unnecessarily " one of the frist rules > of SDA dont put your self at risk if you dont have to" can you explain to me > why you related this tale? > > And what is a friendly fight? I dont get that part either.... Can you > explain? > > The other thing is, to be honest, doing things with poor judgment or on > automatic based on pre conditioning of life time trauma instances is one of > the reasons we have so much reoccurring victimization. But, that's part of > long term training or should be, we are trying to condition our responses by > pre conditioning our minds to do or act appropriately in a set instance of > circumstances, even down to a minimal response. But if you look at it, all > your doing is working it out before hand and being prepared, again back to > core SDA Training Tactics, and sound judgment, that really doesn't have to > be learned by going into bars and getting into Friendly fights. Does it? If > it does then well, hell..... now what... > > Oh and did it hurt when you stepped on your dick? and were you naked at the > time, that short, on your knees or was it the reason they wanted to fight > you and got in your face or what? > > Ms. J... > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:31:10 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: At a loss, Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ms J, a friendly fight is one that you see quite commonly amongst the male species. Most fights from the schoolyard onwards are about flexing the muscles to maintain the staus quo of the pecking order. As a doorman over a number of years most incidents were about being a well timed intervener in 'freindly fights' that allow the ego to be maintained without any damage really happening. i guess im not saying anything new to you but at the same time im not comfortable with the current jump on macyoungs back. nobodies perfect and we create our own idols that in reality are not what we want them to be. when i asked the question at the beginning of the thread i was hoping that we would be able to move away from the posturing and onto other subjects. In light of the movement from hostility i guess there was an element of light hearted banter commonly associated to post fight scenarios. then again its only my interpretation but its the season to forgive and remember that we can all be friends here regardless of what label you place your religion under. when conflict manifests here its an extension of our own conflicts. i can see what some may feel is offensive in the tale but is that the issue? im not an angel, im as imperfect as anyone else and sometimes i've gone after others that i have felt were 'due' it. My wrong doing. But i learn, what else can i do. : ) On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:31:17 -0800, Johnaleen > > > And what is a friendly fight? I dont get that part either.... Can you > explain? -- iPat bows deeply live for today, live for tomorrow "Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, nor through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection..." --__--__-- Message: 7 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:22:14 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Sparring and more Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net John Titus, If you get a chance to be in Miami or Ft Lauderdale area, give us a call, we're inviting you and the others that have the eager to test your skill in stick fight without getting kill or getting hospitalized. In our class, we still do sparring without body armor, but we used the stick homemade padded, its enough to stop the opponents. We are not psycho, groups, we want to continue the traditional training of Eskrimador of Laguna. We also invite you to come along with us in the July Trip to the Philippines. We have two Arnis/Eskrima unpadded live stick Tournament, in Magdalena Laguna and my home town Pate, Laguna about 113 klm from Manila bout 2 hr. drive via Laguna, 1 1/2 hr. via Rizal. We also hold Annual Grato Arenas Summer Retreat, which all of my student and friend of the System are invited to join, and three days of training and Sparring, with stick and Uno (Filipino Wrestling). We don't discriminate practitioner, you don't need to be member of the Garimot Group to join. Just simply e-mail me and I will give you all the requirement to join our Annual Summer Retreat. Everyone is invited, with the exception of those people have a crime records I hope you don't mind being check your back grounds otherwise you are welcome to join us. To prevent injuries, we are doing the Largo Mano then, if you agreed to each other, then I will allowed you to go closed range, but I need both you to be in agreement. Remember we are not psycho, we are the same as you want to test our skill to the limit, that we still can come to work the next day. Fight is well control and monitored by me personally and my senior students. Everyone should hold himself accountable to the rules. Waiver is available. Salamat, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA > Hmmmmm, try going to the bronx or better yet, go to the Philippines. ;-) > If they make you sign a waiver, I guess that's the real thing, live > stick and the works. Those kinds of competitions still exist in some of > the town fiestas here. > > On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:46:56 -0800, "John Titus" > said: > > i have participated in WEKAF style events but was dismayed at the rules- > > with all the armor, it seemed odd to prohibit live hand striking or > > stabbing > > techniques. does anyone know of any organizations or websites that > > promote > > more realistic competition? i don't know if my skill level is high enough > > to > > fight in a 'gathering of the pack', but am definitely interested in the > > realism of the sparring. thank you. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:09:31 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: ED V.11 #463 - WEKAF Tournaments and Sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for explaining some of the perceived weaknesses in WEKAF sparring. While not wholly convinced, I understand that there is much more to WEKAF than the repeated abaniko drum-rolls I saw at a local tournament. I wrote a really long and drawn-out commentary on WEKAF, but it boils down to this: while WEKAF has done a lot to spread the art to competitors and audiences, it is a very limited competition. Treat it as such. Any training beats no training at all, and the pressure of competition is always a great instructor, and WEKAF can fill in some gaps. However, in my humble opinion, to consider WEKAF as your primary combat or police training is to do a disservice to yourself and those depending on you. WoodyTX On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:25:04 -0800 (PST), Bart Hubbard wrote: > Hey There, > > WEKAF style sparring gets a lot of heat. > > Good Luck. (snipped for brevity) > Be Cool. > > Bart Hubbard > Capital Doce Pares > www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:10:44 -0800 (PST) From: Alvin Albano To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Albano School of Eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. de Leon wrote: ** Thank for your post on Filipino dances. Very informative. As I said, this is a whole area for scholarly research. Do you have a website, or just tell us about your school? ** You are very welcome. Sorry, no website at this time, though the production of one is on my New Year's Resolution list. I have been training in FMA under Master Sultan Uddin and his International Eskrima Serrada Association since 1996. While I teach IESA's standard curriculum, my empty hand approach and training drills are heavily influenced by my 3rd dan training in the International Hapkido Federation under Master Jino Kang. This makes for a fun combination, which allows me to sometimes come up with new surprises for my training partners in each art. There are many other Serrada players in this list and many websites you can access for more information, but feel free to contact me offline if you like. Currently, private training is held in my very humble garage and backyard by friendly appointment only. Though I've been lucky to be teaching in both arts for a while now, I always consider myself a student, eager to keep on learning. When family life allows me to create a new web site, I'll be happy to share with the list. Respectfully, Alvin Albano ASE / IESA PS. I'm wondering, is there anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area who trains in Kalis Ilustrisimo or Sayoc Kali? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest