Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:08:14 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #9 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Heart-stopping moments (WoodyTX) 2. the filipino whip (Roy Parker) 3. RE: Heart-stopping moments (guildmaster@guild-hall.com) 4. Re: FMA for Police (Beungood8@aol.com) 5. Re: LEO training (John Oliver) 6. Form ! WHAT Form ! (malcolm knight) 7. RE: the filipino whip (nephalim1@netscape.net) 8. Re: Heart-stopping moments (Todd Ellner) 9. RE: Form ! WHAT Form ! (Wieneke, Myron) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:48:27 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Heart-stopping moments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Welcome to the modern world, where anything you do (including doing nothing at all) can be considered actionable negligence. WoodyTX On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:25:28 -0800, Michael Koblic wrote: > Human rights advocates want law enforcement > to stop using Tasers until scientific evidence can show they don't kill. " > I have a question (and I *honestly* don't want to sound like a smart ass) > what do the Human Rights Activists want to police to use instead? " --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Roy Parker" To: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:26:16 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] the filipino whip Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone out there know of any sources, video or book instruction, for the use of the filipinio whip? Roy Parker --__--__-- Message: 3 From: To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Heart-stopping moments Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:50:02 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net [sarcasm=full]Obviously, by the activists measurements, the police aren't human and have no right to defend themselves in the line of duty. So, of course, they should just let the bad guys have their way, right?[end sarcasm] Mike -----Original Message----- From: WoodyTX [mailto:woodytx@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:48 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Heart-stopping moments Welcome to the modern world, where anything you do (including doing nothing at all) can be considered actionable negligence. WoodyTX On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:25:28 -0800, Michael Koblic wrote: > Human rights advocates want law enforcement > to stop using Tasers until scientific evidence can show they don't kill. " > I have a question (and I *honestly* don't want to sound like a smart ass) > what do the Human Rights Activists want to police to use instead? " _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:59:39 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FMA for Police Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <> <> I am a Police Officer and what is taught as far as defensive tactics and Baton use is very minimal and sproadic at best. There is a small component taught at the Municipal academy for a pproximately a day or so and that is usually it. It consisits of Red/yellow /Grren target areas. Some places use Monadanock ,but, most around here (Mass) use the ASP Baton in 22" or 26" models. I was given permission to use a 31" model and find it weighted different and more suited to dropping someone than the smaller models. Most of the training we received with the ASP was drawing across our bodies to a toploaded position over the shoulder . We were told not to hit the head or collar bones. The sternum was yellow and everything else was green. There was very little in the way given about striking mechanics,footwork or tactics. But ,if one of the non green areas were hit , as long as you articulated why it was hit (ie, subject attempted to strike me as the baton strike was iniiated and caused it to veer into hand etc..) we would be ok. we got to hit a guy in a red suit ,but, since the sticks were padded it really didnt do much to the redman and he tried embarrassing most of the students. I used the tip of the baton and aimed most of my shots between the pads. to say the least the instructors and students got a good laugh out of it.. I think teaching FMA to Police would largely be ineffective unless the teachers would be staying with the students throughout thier carreers and giving sustainment training on a regular basis. the period in the academy would not be enough time to impart enough tactics. I think teaching Leo Gaje's safety Baton system would be a better alternative. I think there should be more reenforcement training on the defensive aspects of our job in inservice training. Around here people get sent to Law updates,CPR and friearms but rarely defensice tactics. My .02 cents, JAck Ouellette New England Pekiti- tirsia Pitbulls Mongrel Combatives --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:01:01 -0800 (PST) From: John Oliver To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: LEO training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay de Leon wrote: Anybody familiar with what is taught at police academies (or any particular academy for that matter?) Jay, I don't know if it is still standard practice, but in the late 80's my ex-wife went through the Riverside County, CA Sheriff's Academy and their baton training consisted primarily of Japanese Hanbo techniques (2 handed parries and thrusts). She had already been training under me for 2 years in escrima so she was fairly well versed. She attempted to use FMA techniques while in the academy but was told that even though what she knew was more advanced than anything they did, she still had to use their training techniques to pass that part of the academy training. When she went out on the streets she could expand slightly on what she used but there was concern that escrima techniques were not geared to control situations with as little force as possible. Like I said, that was the 80's. I certainly hope their eyes have been opened. John G. Oliver Guro, United States Wan Chuan Do Association "You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself." -----Galileo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "malcolm knight" To: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:07:24 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Form ! WHAT Form ! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi , I am rather new to this arnis stuff only been practicing it for 2 months but I would like to run a couple of things past you and get your opinions. Surfing the net looking for info / instruction on escrima I came across dogbrothers.com along with many others , well looking at the clips on site it seems that you teach and attach importance to the same type of stuff ie. correct postioning of oneself out of the line of fire of the attack , footwork , angles of attack and the alive hand. All of this is well and good but when I see clips of actual fights or sparring in full armour it looks to me like most of it goes out of the window !. A lot of what I see seems to be slash slash slash , no attempt to tapi with the free hand and rush onto the oponent to grapple him/her to the floor . I know that technique as taught in class cannot always be regarded as practical in real use , take a look at K1 , MMA etc never a stance to be seen , blocks ? not like the ones you perform constant repetition of in class. So my questions are , am i seeing what I think I am or is it my lack of experience ? . Is it a mistake to formalise training technique too much ? I am in the unfortunate position of having nobody to train with , my pals ( few though they are ) seem to have outgrown interest in martial arts ( outgrown perhaps not the best choice of word but I am 46 and most folks I know would rather vegetate down at the pub.) so I am forced to practice alone with a simple post in the back yard with a movable arm ( up / down ) to represent attacks. Is it possible to attaine a degree of proficiency / understanding of technique without a live partner do you think Any plans to release your instruction series on dvd ? I would like to run past you my idea of what a training schedule should be ( based on past experience in other martial arts training dating back to the 70's so maybe old hat now ) if you have the time and patience to take a look. Look foreward to hearing from you. Regards , Malcolm K www.cool.as/showcase --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:10:36 -0500 From: nephalim1@netscape.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] the filipino whip Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You can get a book by PG Mat Marinas' "Pananandata: History and Techniques of the Daga, Yantok, Balisong, and Other Traditional Weapons of the Philippinnes". The Pilipino horsewhip is covered here. Hope this helps. "Roy Parker" wrote: >Does anyone out there know of any sources, video or book instruction, for the >use of the filipinio whip? >Roy Parker >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  2000 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:44:22 -0800 From: Todd Ellner To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Heart-stopping moments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike writes: > > I think *all* of the medical experts will agree that if you pass electricity > through the body there is a chance of the heart stopping pumping in one way > or another. The chance is greater if the heart is made irritable by > endogenous adrenaline, drugs or disease. What I never understood is why the > Taser etc. has been touted as "non-lethal" option. This somehow implies a > guarantee that the object of the Taser discharge will not die. Hell, if one > hits another in the chest with one's fist just at the right moment the > recipient of the blow can die! A slight pressure on the neck will stop the > heart in many sensitive individuals. There are no guarantees of "non-death". To be a little less cavalier, and a little more humane, consider the line of crap we've been fed by the Taser company. They've always brayed about how safe their products are. Maybe, maybe not. But when you consider that their research consisted of zapping one pig and MAYBE a couple of dogs it sounds a lot like lies to me. They didn't do any real research or assessment. They just did whatever it took to get their products out as quickly and widely as possible. And, like pepper spray and cs tear gas before it the people buying equipment for police departments lapped it right up thinking that the magic wand had arrived. > > Perhaps it is a simple issue of educating public: If I hit you with the > Glock, the chances of dying are 90%. If I hit you with the Tazer, 5%. Your > choice. Either way, a soft pillow is not an option is you threaten me with a > large sharp object. Except that that's not the choice we're given - Taser or .40 S&W. We've seen these things used in full accordance with departmental SOP on little girls running away from school posing no risk to themselves or anyone else. It's becoming the new hands-off answer to everything. The fact that it increases Taser, Inc's quarterly profits is not sufficient justification for blind wholesale adoption. Nobody would argue that shocking someone is unreasonable when the alternative is a stabbing. I would argue strongly that an unknown, untested chance of killing someone who is not posing an immediate threat is completely unreasonable. Running away from the police should not be a potential death sentence for little girls or grown up men unless they fit some narrowly defined standards (Tennessee vs. Garner in the States). > > My other concern is that the Tasers are now available and used in situations > where they may represent excessive force by untrained personnel - airline > staff? But I have only sketchy information on that. Anyone else? There is a movement afoot to reserve them for the Boys in Blue (Lads in Red in your part of the world). Taser training isn't that complicated from what I've seen. Airline personnel and such can certainly be taught to use them as well as your average cop, and the stewardesses and navigators will be doing it a lot less often than the police will. If they're out there I can't see why only law enforcement should have them, especially on a continent where firearms are readily available. There just needs to be real research about their safety and effectiveness, not marketing hype. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Form ! WHAT Form ! Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:13:51 -0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Techniques used in "combat" versus "competition" arnis/kali/escrima are different in a lot of ways. For example, you wouldn't use the tapi hand as a sacrifice block against a stick in competition (its point against you). Also the tendency when sparring with full armor is to hit more than block, I know since I'm as guilty as the next person ;-) My instructors are always telling us to block and hit but since the action is so fast, I tend to try to stay out of range or evade rather than block. I don't know with other people's sparring but when I'm in full armor, I really hardly feel any of the blows (until after the match you see some black and blue) which may account for some bad sparring habits. That's not to say that sparring isn't good. I've learned a lot from sparring, presence of mind, calming your nerves, peripheral vision, reaction moves, ranging, etc. In fact some people's non-FMA moves even come in, jujitsu, karate strikes, grappling, etc. IMHO, sparring is just another facet of training, its not fully indicative of what the training brings since its still not real life. Also people apply their training in different ways, formalized training and ingraining of basics (different strikes/locks with proper form, blocks in different ranges, among others) gives you a strong foundation to build on. As my Maestro keeps on repeating, basics, basics, basics... Don't build your advance knowledge on weak foundation. I think that given equal training; natural talent, skill, tenacity, state of mind, etc all differentiate one person's performance over the other. With regards to practicing by yourself, does that mean that you are not attending any class or are not being taught by an instructor at all? Classes along with practice at home should work well together. In my limited experience, I don't think that self-study or learning from a video, without having the necessary foundation is a good thing to do. Videos should be used as a reference point. How do you know if you are doing the right thing? A lot of times you have to "feel a move" or see it in different angles and practice it to understand it. That importance is magnified several times when doing a combination of moves. My two cents. Good luck. Best Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: malcolm knight [mailto:malcolmk@ntlworld.com] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 8:07 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Form ! WHAT Form ! Hi , I am rather new to this arnis stuff only been practicing it for 2 months but I would like to run a couple of things past you and get your opinions. Surfing the net looking for info / instruction on escrima I came across dogbrothers.com along with many others , well looking at the clips on site it seems that you teach and attach importance to the same type of stuff ie. correct postioning of oneself out of the line of fire of the attack , footwork , angles of attack and the alive hand. All of this is well and good but when I see clips of actual fights or sparring in full armour it looks to me like most of it goes out of the window !. A lot of what I see seems to be slash slash slash , no attempt to tapi with the free hand and rush onto the oponent to grapple him/her to the floor . I know that technique as taught in class cannot always be regarded as practical in real use , take a look at K1 , MMA etc never a stance to be seen , blocks ? not like the ones you perform constant repetition of in class. So my questions are , am i seeing what I think I am or is it my lack of experience ? . Is it a mistake to formalise training technique too much ? I am in the unfortunate position of having nobody to train with , my pals ( few though they are ) seem to have outgrown interest in martial arts ( outgrown perhaps not the best choice of word but I am 46 and most folks I know would rather vegetate down at the pub.) so I am forced to practice alone with a simple post in the back yard with a movable arm ( up / down ) to represent attacks. Is it possible to attaine a degree of proficiency / understanding of technique without a live partner do you think Any plans to release your instruction series on dvd ? I would like to run past you my idea of what a training schedule should be ( based on past experience in other martial arts training dating back to the 70's so maybe old hat now ) if you have the time and patience to take a look. Look foreward to hearing from you. Regards , Malcolm K www.cool.as/showcase _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ============================================================================== This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. 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