Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:18:15 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #10 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Police training (Bill Lowery) 2. Re: Re: Police training (jay de leon) 3. Re: Re: Heart-stopping moments (WoodyTX) 4. RE: the filipino whip (Ron Balicki) 5. Re: Form ! WHAT Form ! (WoodyTX) 6. Re: Form ! WHAT Form ! (George Mason) 7. Other occupations that have knife issues (Halg) 8. Shocking (Michael Koblic) 9. Charlie Foxtrot in Mexico part 3 (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:45 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Police training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Jay, My first student was also the baton instructor for Northumbria Transport Police (UK). John stated that when using the PR-24 side handled baton in accordance with Home Office regulations, the only fully legal technique which could be deployed was to hold the baton with both hands horizontally and push the perp back across the chest whilst shouting "Get back". Anything else was immediately into the grey area as far as legality was concerned! Bill -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:31:15 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Police training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bill: I understand the legal aspect of your answer, thanks. But I was also interested in this--Were the officers trained by their department in the "combat" aspect of that weapon?. Let's say the perp then grabbed the baton with both his hands, and attempts to kick the officer. Let's also say the intent was there to either hurt the officer, or relieve him of his baton and possibly use it against him? I also assume that the NTP(UK) is regular police, not private security? Thanks, Jay Bill Lowery wrote: Hi Jay, My first student was also the baton instructor for Northumbria Transport Police (UK). John stated that when using the PR-24 side handled baton in accordance with Home Office regulations, the only fully legal technique which could be deployed was to hold the baton with both hands horizontally and push the perp back across the chest whilst shouting "Get back". Anything else was immediately into the grey area as far as legality was concerned! Bill -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:50:54 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Heart-stopping moments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Interesting. Can you provide links for these claims? I'm curious as to what happened to the officer who tasered the little girl playing hookey. WoodyTX On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:44:22 -0800, Todd Ellner wrote: > Mike writes: > But when you consider that their > research consisted of zapping one pig and MAYBE a couple of dogs it sounds > a lot like lies to me. They didn't do any real research or assessment. They > just did whatever it took to get their products out as quickly and widely > as possible. > > We've seen > these things used in full accordance with departmental SOP on little girls > running away from school posing no risk to themselves or anyone else. It's > becoming the new hands-off answer to everything. > Running away from the police should not be a > potential death sentence for little girls or grown up men unless they fit > some narrowly defined standards (Tennessee vs. Garner in the States). --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Ron Balicki" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:04:55 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: the filipino whip Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Tom Meadows is comng out with a book on the Filipino Whip.  You can also get videos by Anthony DeLongis on Mastering the Bullwhip Volumes 1 & 2.  It is released by my company PointMan Productions.  you can go to www.pointManproductions.com Ron Balicki --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:24:00 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Form ! WHAT Form ! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net OK, you're right that the strict form can dissolve when sparring, but there are things you may not see in the fight that are very, very important. The demo clip from DB.com has a great kick in it, and there is some blocking, you just have to really look for it, as things go so fast. In my experience (5 years FMA and MMA, competing and judging FMA), a lot of the more complicated moves won't work in the ring. This is not to say that they're useless, as you may need them in the real world. Against a trained fighter, it's mostly block-hit-block-run away. One of the recurring problems I see in our competitions (shameless plug: www.edgefighting.com) is exactly what you refer to, the lack of blocking. Since we judge on instances of fighting, not on number of hits, this mistake destroys most competitors who don't train for the rules. They wade in, ignoring the shots they receive, hoping to somehow make it up by delivering a higher volume. The judges look at the instance, say to themselves, "You're both dead," and nobody gets a point for it. In another instance, the other fighter tags the hand of the newbie, who ignores single hits in favor of multiple barrages, resulting in an unanswered point for other fighter. You mentioned MMA style fighting. Watch some of the better MMA fighters out there. The stance may not be what you're familiar with, but it's there. When Randy Couture spanked Tito Ortiz in UFC 44, watch how he handled Tito's standing game. Lots of blocking and waiting for the openings, although it wasn't the Traditional "Karate Kid" style sweeping blocks. Simply put, what you're looking for is sometimes there, but it's streamlined to the point where you may not recognize it anymore. Combat (even the ritualized combat we call sparring) has a way of paring techniques down to their essence. As for training by yourself, the best thing you can do is conditioning, both physical and neurological. Work the triangles until you don't have to think about them any more as you swing the stick. Get your stick speed and power as high as possible. Try to keep the stick swinging without having to think about where it will end up. Put combinations together, or learn some stroking drills. When you get to train with someone, whether on a weekend seminar, you won't be having to learn the basics, and can absorb more of the advanced material. But this is all my humble (and seriously over-written) opinion. If you can find someone to spar with (using helmets, padded sticks, whatever it takes to get them in the ring), do so. I've had lots of fun sparring with the "geeks in the park": SCA, LARP, or Amtgard types. Despite their lack of training, a few of them have learned something about how to swing a stick. WoodyTX On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:07:24 -0800, malcolm knight wrote: > All of this is well and good but when I see clips of actual fights or > sparring in full armour it looks to me like most of it goes out of the > window !. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:27:36 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: George Mason To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Form ! WHAT Form ! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Malcolm, Well, you are right that alot of stuff does seem to go out the window. But sometimes you might be surprised that if you train certain techniques enough that you will perform them without thinking. It becomes second nature. The problem with stick fighting is that in actuality, it moves so blasted fast that alot of the fancy stuff just isn't practical. It boils down to how much time you spend with the weapon in hand and have you trained to the point that your reflex actions are better than your enemy. Look at it like this. You may have better technique in the classical sense than the guy you are going to fight. But if he is twice as fast as you, chances are you will lose. It is important to blend things. You have to work on good classical technique but you also have to just work on being quick and agile. I have won fights on technique but also many times won just on being fast. My response may not help at all. But I hope that maybe it does. Have a great day. Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:41:54 -0700 From: Halg To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Other occupations that have knife issues Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Crafty asked: "Hal, how is it that you have had to face knife wielders 3x (or more?) ? Especially if you are not an LEO this is quite a high number. Please share with us what happened in as much detail as you are inclined." This is why I normally just lurk, but I guess if you want to hear the story, I'll tell it. It's not exactly fascinating and certainly not flattering. I know that emergency room nurses, fire-fighters and paramedics have their fair share of dealing with violence, as do Correctional Officers like myself. Security people also come to mind. I've been a CO since 1981 so have been involved in a lot more than three weapons disarms, but only one of those was a situation where I was solo and without defensive tools. I'm not going to go into details about it here. The other two incidents both occurred when I was young and dumb and part of a similar crowd. I was living in a rural area at the time and when us young guys would meet up in town everybody had some sort of knife in their pocket mostly because they are handy tools to have when you live in the country. One time one of my friends was picking on a local punk who, along with a few others, had been playing the roles of tough guys. The punk pulled a knife and was threatening with it rather than actually trying to stab anyone. We could have walked away but instead I got pissed off, and told him to drop the knife or get a beating. Of course he didn't drop the knife and I attacked him. On that day I was quicker mad than he was scared. For the next couple of weeks I missed very few opportunities to show off my 'new' knife and succeeded in upsetting the punk's crowd enough that one of them came up to me and threatened me with his knife. He wasn't prepared for me to immediately jump him and start swinging and I got lucky again. I have the perception (true or not)that teenagers today are more practiced with knives and also a lot more likely to just start stabbing instead of standing around threatening. I guess if two knife disarms seems like a high number for someone still in their teens, I agree. I've managed to go another 30 years (mostly in a city) without having a 'civilian' knife episode. On the other hand, because of the business I'm in I know quite a few people who are not LEO who have had multiple knife altercations because of the lifestyles they lead. Most of them have the scars to prove it. Hal Calgary (Going back to lurking) --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:31:48 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Shocking Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Running away from the police should not be a potential death sentence for little girls or grown up men unless they fit some narrowly defined standards (Tennessee vs. Garner in the States)." I think that is what I was refering to among other things. If you have a departmental policy to avoid hitting certain areas of the body, there should be the same policy for tasers. "There is a movement afoot to reserve them for the Boys in Blue (Lads in Red in your part of the world). Taser training isn't that complicated from what I've seen. Airline personnel and such can certainly be taught to use them as well as your average cop, and the stewardesses and navigators will be doing it a lot less often than the police will. If they're out there I can't see why only law enforcement should have them, especially on a continent where firearms are readily available. There just needs to be real research about their safety and effectiveness, not marketing hype" Tasers and their ilk are "prohibited weapons" up here. Do not laugh, I can carry a 10" bowie to a post office. I am just concerned about giving Tasers to a bunch of very underpaid and pissed off people in the Airline industry and expect them to be used appropriately.Who is going to determine the guidelines? BTW good luck dealing with a cardiac arrest on a plane in the air... Michael Koblic Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:07:36 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Charlie Foxtrot in Mexico part 3 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Buz wrote and I intersperse my responses: >> > Yikes, what an astounding series of video Crafty submitted. A charlie > foxtrot from start to finish. I thought so too. , , , , > > What happened? > > LEOs attempting to arrest knife wielding thugs allowed events to spiral > out of control. In Mexico City, a gang was systematically robbing people at knife point in a particular area. For example, they would mount a "combi" (a van acting as a small public transport bus, usually loaded to the gills) and rob everyone at knife point and then melt back into the dense chaotic traffic. Sundry traffic cops converged on the area when the BGs were spotted. The officers are not part of a team, they are traffic cops whose day usually consists of dealing with the bowels of Mexico City traffic. > > What caused the LEO's death? > > He failed to watch his back, as did his partners, and so was stabbed in > the back. He was ambulatory for quite some time after the wound, the > stab appeared to land in the high left side of his back, so my guess is > the bad guy nicked the sub-clavial or other artery and the LEO bled out > internally. Though ballistic armor has to be specifically designed to > resist knife penetration, the ease of the stab suggests no armor was > worn. In the subsequent clips there on the website we learn just how poorly equipped and trained the police are. > > WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? > > IMO this is why God invented shotguns. 12 gauge 00 to the center of > mass would have ended this fun toot sweet. Are there any backstop issues which concern you? > > WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE? > > A perimeter established, the area cleared of civilians, and the bad > guys killed or otherwise subdued one by one with overwhelming force. Agreed. But this training simply is not part of the reality of this situation. Therefore, Additional Questions: 1) What does one do upon arriving as a LEO? It appears no one is leading-- and certainly the one officer with the baton didn't get backed up very much when he tried! Does one try to take the lead? If so, how? and if so, what are the first commands given? Is it SOP to assign some of your team, against all instinct, to look outward for additional BGs? 2) Is there a way heroic fool civilians can help? > > WERE DISARMS POSSIBLE? > > I think that's the wrong question. They may have been possible, but > they sure as hell weren't indicated. There is no reason for an LEO to > risk the degree of exposure needed to initiate a disarm. As discussed in the follow up segments, these men have virtually zero range time at circular targets and desparately poor as they are, they must pay for the own ammo. I would be highly surprised if they had any training addressing the issues of bullets continuing on their merry way. Question: Would any of the many qualified gun people here help us understand this issue better? How does one shoot in the middle of a crowded street? It seems to work in Hollywood movies , , , > > How well prepared do you feel by your training for this scenario? > > IMO only SWAT team members or members of elite military units that have > trained for urban warfare can claim they have the requisite experience. > Anyone who hasn't trained small unit tactics live fire amid friendlies > with attacks possible on a 360 degree axis hasn't trained for this > scenario. YES. > > Then share your experiences and observations from the exercise here. > > Two observations. First the video quality of the action was not that > good, and much of what occurred was occluded so perhaps I missed it, > but I didn't see anything that looked like pepper spray being used. Yes, these officers are poorly trained and outfitted. I remember being maced in 1977 in San Cristobal de las Casas in Chiapas, Mexico (near the Guatemalan border) as I climbed out the back window of the police station and it was so old that it had almost no effect. > Though the bad guys were so clearly over the top that I don't think > pepper spray or similar agents would have ended things, I think they > could have kept the perps busy long enough to get a handle on the > situation. > > Second, the only firearms I saw were pistols and a sub-machine gun > (SMG), all most likely chambered in 9mm. SMGs are often loaded with > full metal jacket, also known as ball, ammo because it tends to feed > better through a quickly cycling weapon. Some police forces also use > FMJ in their pistols, mostly to avoid controversy over the use of more > effective and appropriate hollow point bullets. Bottom line is it > seemed to me the LEOs had the wrong tools to get the job done. An SMG > spraying ball could have brought down a bad guy, but even if all rounds > hit a perp FMJs often pass right through their targets, heading merrily > on toward bystanders. If the pistols were also loaded with 9mm ball the > same problem stands. YES. > In short the wrong tools plus bad tactics equals a charlie foxtrot for > sure. Good assessment. What, if anything, can an individual clear headed officer (citizen?) do in these circumstances? COMING SOON: THE SURPRISE ENDING Woof, Crafty Dog/Marc --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest