Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:57:11 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #11 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Heart-stopping moments (Ken Grubb) 2. RE: Re: Heart-stopping moments (Ken Grubb) 3. RE: Re: Heart-stopping moments (Ken Grubb) 4. Re: Charlie Foxtrot in Mexico part 3 (Buz Grover) 5. Observations from the Philippines (Sid Stein) 6. the Filipino latiko (rob mulligan) 7. Re: NTP UK (Bill Lowery) 8. RE: the Filipino latiko (Wieneke, Myron) 9. Re: the Filipino latiko (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ken Grubb" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: Heart-stopping moments Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:49:47 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net WoodyTX wrote: > Can you provide links for these claims? I'm curious as to what > happened to the officer who tasered the little girl playing hookey. http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/08/Tampabay/Taser_claims_stir_SEC.shtml Taser claims stir SEC inquiry Federal officials are comparing Taser International's safety claims with studies about the stun gun. By MARCUS FRANKLIN, Times Staff Writer Published January 8, 2005 Taser International, the company that makes stun guns used by police in the Tampa Bay area and across the country, is the subject of an "informal inquiry" by federal authorities over safety claims made by company officials, Taser announced this week. ... Last November in Miami-Dade County, police were criticized after officers used Taser guns to subdue a 6-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl. Police said the boy had cut himself twice with a shard of glass and was threatening to harm himself again. Police say the girl, suspected of skipping school, was fleeing officers. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Ken Grubb" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: Heart-stopping moments Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 18:52:56 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net WoodyTX wrote: > Can you provide links for these claims? I'm curious as to what > happened to the officer who tasered the little girl playing hookey. http://www.broward.com/mld/miamiherald/news/10427027.htm Man dies after Hollywood police use Taser BY EVAN S. BENN A Broward County man died Wednesday night after being shocked with a Hollywood police officer's Taser stun gun. ... Hollywood police began using Tasers about four years ago. The man isn't the first to die after being shocked with a stun gun by a Hollywood police officer. In 2002, a man who broke a door and caused a commotion in a Hollywood motel lobby died after being shot with a Taser gun. The Broward medical examiner concluded Vincent Del' Ostia died as a result of cocaine use, not the Taser. The man's family alleges in a lawsuit that police used excessive force. Miami police investigators said the medical examiner concluded that cocaine, not the Taser, was also the cause of death for Jon Merkle of Hallandale Beach, who died on Sept. 20 after being shocked with a Taser. In November 2003, Kerry O'Brien of Davie died after a Pembroke Pines police officer used a Taser on him. The medical examiner later determined that he accidentally died from positional asphyxiation after officers hog-tied him. Of the more than 70 deaths that happened in police custody after Tasers were used, medical examiners have ruled only two of them were caused by Tasers. Taser International scientists dispute both of those. Taser International says its device is safe but some say it hasn't been properly studied. Some officers have been criticized for using Tasers against children. In November, Miami-Dade police used Tasers on two children, a 6-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl. The use of the Taser against the 6-year-old was justified, said Miami-Dade Police Director Robert Parker, because the boy was threatening to hurt himself. Parker said the use of a Taser on a 12-year-old who was skipping school was a mistake, and the officer will be disciplined. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Ken Grubb" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: Heart-stopping moments Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:06:33 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Todd Ellner wrote: > > Perhaps it is a simple issue of educating public: If I hit you with > > the Glock, the chances of dying are 90%. If I hit you with the Tazer, > > 5%. Your choice. Either way, a soft pillow is not an option is you > > threaten me with a large sharp object. > Except that that's not the choice we're given - Taser or .40 S&W. Very much on the mark, Todd. Firearms are deadly force, period. Taser aren't. If Tasers are to be considered on an equal footing with firearms, then that would seem to justify every claim made that Tasers aren't a harmless alternative for LE. Furthermore, if I were a cop, and Tasers were deadly force, I would not ever bother with a Taser--only one shot on one target. If there were multiple BGs, I'd much rather have my Glock. > We've seen these things used in full accordance with departmental SOP > on little girls running away from school posing no risk to themselves > or anyone else. It's becoming the new hands-off answer to everything. With most of the Taser cases I read about, the person Tasered was engaged in behavior clearly intended to harm themselves or others. [That said, by no means have I read the details about EVERY or even MOST incidents involving a Taser, not even all the potentially Taser related deaths.] The Tasering of the 6 year old boy in Miami could be easily argued, IMHO, was justified given that the boy was attempting or threatening to cut himself with glass. But the 12 year old girl playing hookie, even the Miami Dade PD said that was wrong and the officer will be "disciplined". I too would like to know specifics of the aforementioned "disciplining". Ken Grubb Bellevue, WA --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:39:59 -0500 From: Buz Grover Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Charlie Foxtrot in Mexico part 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm surprised more haven't joined this thread. It's not often we get a birds-eye view of a knife altercation; there's plenty relevant to the FMA to be gleaned. Be that as it may. . . . Crafty writes: > In Mexico City, a gang was systematically robbing people at knife > point in a particular area. For example, they would mount a "combi" > (a van acting as a small public transport bus, usually loaded to the > gills) and rob everyone at knife point and then melt back into the > dense chaotic traffic. Sundry traffic cops converged on the area when > the BGs were spotted. The officers are not part of a team, they are > traffic cops whose day usually consists of dealing with the bowels of > Mexico City traffic. Hmm, didn't realize they were Third World, second string. I write: >> IMO this is why God invented shotguns. 12 gauge 00 to the center of >> mass would have ended this fun toot sweet. And then Crafty asks: > Are there any backstop issues which concern you? Certainly. However buckshot doesn't over-penetrate anything like 9mm FMJ. so there is less to worry about. In my case I'm a tall guy so would aim for low center of mass, looking for anything going through and through to hit the pavement eventually. From the look of the video there were those sorts of windows. I've heard, moreover, that shotguns cause bad guys to find religion. Think if you dropped one with 00, the others would see Jesus. > 1) What does one do upon arriving as a LEO? There's no way to answer that question succinctly, and I'm certainly not qualified to answer in any case. I am a member of a Community Emergency Response Team (CERT), however. Formed in the wake of 9/11, we're trained to be first responders when traditional first responders are overwhelmed by a disaster. We drill a lot, both as first responders, and as "victims" for traditional first responders. While drilling it's become clear that cowboy stuff doesn't work. Rather you need to set up some sort of perimeter, matrix, or structure that you then deploy your resources into. > Does one try to take the lead? With CERT the first one on the scene is the leader until relieved. > Is there a way heroic fool civilians can help? Not really, and there is no way of knowing if a heroic fool is really a bad guy looking for a way to escape. The CERT focus is medical; we train to find ways to dispatch helpful bystanders to treatment areas where the can be better assessed and controlled. > As discussed in the follow up segments, these men have virtually zero > range time at circular targets and desparately poor as they are, they > must pay for the own ammo. I would be highly surprised if they had > any training addressing the issues of bullets continuing on their > merry way. Makes the likelihood that they are loaded with FMJ almost a certainty as it is much cheaper than most alternatives. > I remember being maced in 1977 in San Cristobal de las Casas in > Chiapas, Mexico (near the Guatemalan border) as I climbed out the back > window of the police station > and it was so old that it had almost no effect. Hmm, sounds like a good story is lurking. Some of my caving pals are way into Mexican spelunking and have all sorts of amazing backwater tales. > What, if anything, can an individual clear headed officer (citizen?) > do in these circumstances? Uhm, put your back against a brick wall and pray? > COMING SOON: THE SURPRISE ENDING Good! My Spanish only works in kitchen contexts. Haven't been able to figure out the surprise. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:01:37 -0800 (PST) From: Sid Stein To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Observations from the Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Being on my first trip to the philippines, I though I would share some observations. FMA does not seem all that popular here. It seems that Tae Kwon Do is more popular in the martial arts world, and basketball and hip-hop being more popular within the general population. This could be due to "colonial mentality" and also that FMA is a traditional Filipino art. So it is possilbe to find FMA but you really need to look. I managed to get down to Batangas province, and pick up some balisongs and a bolo. And I am getting some training in with some of the instructors. Sid Stein Defensor Method, Chicago (Temporarily on Mindoro island) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:38:32 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] the Filipino latiko Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a two Filipino “latiko” whips that were given to me by PG Marinas back in the 80’s, and two others more recently. The oldest ones are the best made of any I’ve seen. They don’t really get used except by twin brothers who I train, and then only in special demo’s. (their pics are on my website) I have a friend/student named Jose Capitulo. When he went back to the R.P. last year, he found that the whip makers were all but gone, so he decided to make them himself, to carry on a dying tradition. My guess is he’s the only one in the U.S. or even in the hemisphere making them. He built a hand cranked machine in his basement, and his whips get tighter and better every day. He even made me one where he replaced the traditional knots with triangular cross sections of cow bone (shaped like the “Mitsubishi” logo) that will shred skin (or preferably eyeballs) like a machine gun firing razor blades. In the old days, the warriors would dip the tips in shellac, then glass shards; and even dung, but that’s a pretty tough way to practice, even for people like Crafty. (just kidding) If you’re interested, get in touch with me, and maybe if he gets enough encouragement, Jose will make a batch. Rob Mulligan www.kwikstik.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:20:55 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: NTP UK Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Jay, > I understand the legal aspect of your answer, thanks. But I was also > interested in this--Were the officers trained by their department in the > "combat" aspect of that weapon?. Let's say the perp then grabbed the > baton with both his hands, and attempts to kick the officer. Let's also > say the intent was there to either hurt the officer, or relieve him of his > baton and possibly use it against him? > > I also assume that the NTP(UK) is regular police, not private security?< Nope, the NTP were taught the legal use of the baton, any counter measures were left to the staff themselves to work out, which Had to remain within the Home Office guidelines! The NTP are a body of police separate but connected to the main body of police, not a private organisation. Bill -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] the Filipino latiko Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:32:27 -0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just to clarify the wording, it should be "Latigo", which is the filipino (I think its actually spanish as well) word for Whip. Next time your friend goes back to the Philippines, ask him to talk to a calesa driver (horse-drawn carriage) on where they get their latigos. They still do make them in the provinces, some of them are even made from stingray's tail (buntot pagi). Traditionally people use the stingray tail whip as defense against the "aswang" (something like a vampire) so a lot of the rural areas still know how to make these. BTW, yes I'm originally from P.I. (Philippine Islands) though my name doesn't sound filipino at all ;-) Myron -----Original Message----- From: rob mulligan [mailto:panguro3@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 9:39 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] the Filipino latiko I have a two Filipino "latiko" whips that were given to me by PG Marinas back in the 80's, and two others more recently. The oldest ones are the best made of any I've seen. They don't really get used except by twin brothers who I train, and then only in special demo's. (their pics are on my website) I have a friend/student named Jose Capitulo. When he went back to the R.P. last year, he found that the whip makers were all but gone, so he decided to make them himself, to carry on a dying tradition. My guess is he's the only one in the U.S. or even in the hemisphere making them. He built a hand cranked machine in his basement, and his whips get tighter and better every day. He even made me one where he replaced the traditional knots with triangular cross sections of cow bone (shaped like the "Mitsubishi" logo) that will shred skin (or preferably eyeballs) like a machine gun firing razor blades. In the old days, the warriors would dip the tips in shellac, then glass shards; and even dung, but that's a pretty tough way to practice, even for people like Crafty. (just kidding) If you're interested, get in touch with me, and maybe if he gets enough encouragement, Jose will make a batch. Rob Mulligan www.kwikstik.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ============================================================================== This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure. ============================================================================== --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:35:09 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the Filipino latiko To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rob, Though they aren't of Filipino origin, my friend and Latigo y Daga instructor, Tom "Tommy The Whip" Meadows turned me on to Joe Strain's beautiful western style bullwhips. He makes a whip that is around four feet and is ideal for FMA applications. Best, Steve Kohn rob mulligan wrote: I have a two Filipino “latiko” whips that were given to me by PG Marinas back in the 80’s, and two others more recently. The oldest ones are the best made of any I’ve seen. They don’t really get used except by twin brothers who I train, and then only in special demo’s. (their pics are on my website) I have a friend/student named Jose Capitulo. When he went back to the R.P. last year, he found that the whip makers were all but gone, so he decided to make them himself, to carry on a dying tradition. My guess is he’s the only one in the U.S. or even in the hemisphere making them. He built a hand cranked machine in his basement, and his whips get tighter and better every day. He even made me one where he replaced the traditional knots with triangular cross sections of cow bone (shaped like the “Mitsubishi” logo) that will shred skin (or preferably eyeballs) like a machine gun firing razor blades. In the old days, the warriors would dip the tips in shellac, then glass shards; and even dung, but that’s a pretty tough way to practice, even for people like Crafty. (just kidding) If you’re interested, get in touch with me, and maybe if he gets enough encouragement, Jose will make a batch. Rob Mulligan www.kwikstik.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest