Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 03:03:34 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #34 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. GM Arthur Gonzalez and DeCuerdas (jay de leon) 2. RE: 15th Dan Really - C'mon Guys (Mike Casto) 3. RE: Info on a school (marko.ronkainen@nokia.com) 4. (no subject) (Ed Peregrino) 5. 15th Dan (Jonathan Broster) 6. Re: Re: i need information - arnis v eskrima (richard.digger@virgin.net) 7. You're welcome (Marc Denny) 8. The Funeral Service of Grandmaster Dr. Moses Powell (Mabson & Associates) 9. Re: Re: i need information - arnis v eskrima (Ray Terry) 10. RE: re: history of the word escrima (William J. Spence) 11. RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments (Peter Gow) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:48:30 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GM Arthur Gonzalez and DeCuerdas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Sir: Thank you for taking the time to set the record straight about the Tenio DeCuerdas system. I just have a few points of clarification. (1) You state that you are the inheritor of the DeCuerdas system by virtue of the head of the system (Richard Tenio) retiring and appointing you head of the Tenio DeCuerdas system. But then you also state you were given permission to create your own system. This is confusing to me. Are you teaching and continuing the teachings of the Tenio DeCuerdas system as Gilbert Tenio taught it, or have you now created your own system based on the Tenio DeCuerdas system? I am not implying either one is correct or wrong. Just not clear what you meant to say. (2) You stated that in the DeCuerdas system, only Gilbert Tenio and John Eliab were senior to you. Then you also state that your senior and mentor was GM Dentoy Revillar. Do you mean to say, outside the DeCuerdas system, you also consider GM Revillar as another guro to you? Thank you. Jay de Leon decuerdas@softcom.net wrote: Dear Sirs, It has been or policy to remain silent to rumors as not to increase their claims. But on 7-18-03 I, Arthur Gonzalez, was promoted to GM of Tenio's DeCuerdas. Richard Tenio retired and presented me a GM certificate plus his fathers belt and I was also given permission to create my own system. Policy has now changed! Many people came in contact with the late GM Gilbert Tenio, but what I'm talking about is people who actual studied in the schools Academy . Lineage : When Tenio's last instructor died he finally declared himself GM. The next person in line was Senior Chief Master Juan Eliab. I was the Senior Master instructor after John. I was given my Masters Certificate on 7-18-86. Richard van Donk was as others under me. After John passed away both Angel Cabales and Gilbert Tenio announced in a MA convention in Sacramento,CA that their sons would take over after they passed away. Wally Jay was present and this came out in a MA magazine. When Gilbert Tenio passed away and as we lowered Gilbert into his grave I ,Arthur Gonzalez, Richard Van Donk, and others gave Gilbert Tenio's Gi and belt to his son,Richard Tenio. We dressed him and acknowledged him as GM. I had completed Gilbert wishes. Gilbert Tenio only gave permission for Richard Van Donk to teach in Santa Cruz ! Prof. James Muro was also given a Masters Certificate. My senior and mentor would be Gm Dentoy Rivillar of SLD. I am supported by Stockton,CA and MA organizations. However, of the FMA and MA's of the world, I only ask that you that you judge me by skills! I will be producing DVDs and I'll be doing seminars in the states and abroad. Please, feel free to visit my school in 1145 W. Fremont St. Stockton,CA. Thank you for your time. GM Arthur Gonzalez Sr. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] 15th Dan Really - C'mon Guys Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 02:23:48 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I assume you mean Dr. Hatsumi. No, he's not a 10th Dan - as I understand it, he has no actual rank - he's "Soke" and is outside of the rank structure per se. As I understand it, he modified the ranking system of Bujinkan Ninjutsu several years ago and it now goes up to 15th Dan. I'm not a Bujinkan player but I've talked to several over the years and I know it goes up to 15th Dan for certain. Whether Van Donk is actually a 15th Dan or not, I don't know. Check these links which discuss Bujinkan some and make some mention (though not much of an explanation) about the Dan ranks above 10th. http://www.bujinkanbudokai.nl/contact.html There's some particularly interesting discussion about the whole 15th Dan thing at this page: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7584.html And at this page: http://www.muzosa.com/ there's mention of Ed Martin being 15th Dan. I've not met Ed personally but have talked to him on the phone and know people who do know him personally. By all accounts his 15th Dan is 100% legitimate and was awarded by Dr. Hatsumi. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Peter Gow [mailto:gowp@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:04 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 15th Dan Really - C'mon Guys A 15th Dan A! I find it rather interesting that anyone would make that type of claim. Also I wonder what Dr. Hamimitsu - according to other people he is supposed to be one of the last ninjas and he is only a 10th dan. Inoue Motokatsu who passed on, a couple of years ago was the real deal and he was a hanshi - an eighth dan - this man had been training since childhood until into his seventies. Yamaguji was also a 10th dan and he was the head of the Goju style in Japan. Asa matter of fact all the heads of the Japanese styles have never to my knowledge been higher than a 10th dan. I ASK THE PERSON WHO IS MAKING THIS CLAIM TO SCAN THEIR GRADING CERTIFICATE AND PUT IT ON THE WEB FOR US TO SEE OR SEND A COPY TO THE ESCRIMA DIGEST! EITHER PUT UP OR WITHDRAW THE CLAIM. Just my 2cents. Peter Gow Australia. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Info on a school Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:53:58 +0200 From: To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > "..now helping organize the World Peace Project IV with the Dali Lama and > other spiritual leaders to be held in 2002. " Dali Lama? Is he a decendant of Dalai Lama and Salvador Dalí? ;-) - Marko --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Ed Peregrino" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 02:07:21 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GM Narrie Babao is located in the San Diego area. GM Babao is a member of the World Filipino Martial Arts Association and I believe his system is based on Doce Pares. Hope this helps. Gumagalang, Ed Peregrino --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:59:37 +0000 From: "Jonathan Broster" To: Subject: [Eskrima] 15th Dan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi I think that alarm bells should ring any time anyone claims any Dan ranking over 5 or 6. A good example of this would be the very real lack of teachers of judo over this grade active in France, Germany, England, despite there being real quality in depth in these countries. The obvious fact is that judo is fairly tightly regulated, making spurious claims that much easier to check. And where is the disgrace in being a 3rd or 4th Dan? To my mind those ranks take years of study. It might seem that us Europeans have a polarised view of people across the Atlantic, but how many American claim to be Masters? Lots. Patently ludicrous that someone who trains in a rare, esoteric art can reach mastery in a few years, in many cases with little contact with their teacher. I feel that there is a word that has been missed from the vocabulary of most MAists "expert". If I were an expert marksman, I would be really very good, but we seem to have skipped this linguistic level and gone straight to master in martial arts. Perhaps the worst crime in all this is the magazines that report on these people and thereby lend them authority. There is a website that reports on people falsely claiming military service. How about another that exposes fake masters. Jon ... --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:28:12 +0000 (UTC) From: "richard.digger@virgin.net" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: i need information - arnis v eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Pardon my ignorance, but where does kali/kalis fit into this debate? Is it just another name for same/similar arts or something completely different. Look forward to your replies, Regards, Rich --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:55:05 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] You're welcome Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof: > On Saturday, I received my Black Belt in Machado Jiu-Jitsu from Carlos > Machado. I wanted to just say thanks to the Dog Brothers for introducing > me to Carlos and his Brothers. Thanks Marc, Eric, and Arlan! > > Alvis W. Solis You're welcome. Carlos not only is Carlos an awesome BJJ talent, technician and instructor, but he is also a class man whom I hold in high regard. Please give him my warmest greetings. Woof, Crafty Dog/Marc --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Mabson & Associates" To: "MAF" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:40:42 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] The Funeral Service of Grandmaster Dr. Moses Powell Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The funeral service of Grandmaster Dr. Moses Powell will be held on Friday, January 28, 2005 at 2:00PM. PALM BAY FUNERAL HOME (321) 724-2224 950 MALABAR RD SE PALM BAY FL 32907 *This is located on the east coast of central Florida north of Ft. Pierce, Florida and south of Cocoa, Florida off I-95. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: i need information - arnis v eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:07:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Pardon my ignorance, but where does kali/kalis fit into this debate? Is it > just another name for same/similar arts or something completely different. Eskrima, arnis, kali __ (more or less) same-same. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:14:13 -0800 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "William J. Spence" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] re: history of the word escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net While following the thread below I came across the following very interesting site. http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html Kyud Spence Kuntaw - http://www.kuntaw.com/ Message: 1 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:22:52 -0800 (PST) From: guro marsh To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: history of the word escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As far as i know as it was told to me by Maestro Angeles the word escrima evolved along these lines. in the old days it was called kali among other names depending on local when the spanish invaded the philippines there was war seeing fighting the spanish soldiers would yell "esgrima!esgrima!" meaning a fight, a "skirmish", a battle, in time as spanish could not overcome the rebelion of the filipinos through tactical methods they resorted to the "breed them out" philosophies which caused the spanish/filipino lang. we know today and the word in question became escrima or eskrima if you look at dialects you can see the infiltration of the spanish for instance uno-spanish, una-filipino , como esta-spanish , kumusta-filipino etc..you would also be suprised that in the visayans that most "average joe's" do not know what escrima is when you say escrima to theme they see as you are talking about street fighting when the word arnis is mentioned they then understand what you are talking about and will usealy respond with a "ahhhhhh you do the sticks huh?" thats about the best i can give hope it helps Punong Guro Rodger Marsh Chief Instructor Angeles Escrima C.E.O. Martial Art Technologies http://www.martialarttechnologies.com William J Spence Supervisor, CCO Sustaining Engineering Department: 202 V109-B9 ext. 21686 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 23:50:21 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Carlo, I base my information on the last two journeys to Japan which were quiet some years ago. Also you should do your research in more depth, as I personally trained with some of the guys that were mentioned and at that time there was no-one I repeat no one in Japan graded higher than a 10th dan, even some heads of  various styles did not have a 10th dan grading. You really should be asking yourself - Why is that? Tell me do you know the difference between a fifth dan and a sixth dan? Anyway I am not agueing with you I have better things to do than that. If you don't have the necessaries to ask for proof then don't ask but it doesn't change my mind. THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXCEPT FROM BUJIKAN "The 1997 U.S. TaiKai lasted four days.  It was held in Somerset, New Jersey, and was hosted by shidoshi Jack Hoban.  Fifteen people who had attained the rank of 10th dan attended, including Stephen K. Hayes and Bud Malmstrom who along with Hoban are considered the founding fathers of ninjutsu in America.   Altogether 600 people--the most so far for this event--attended, including students from Canada, England, Japan, Sweden, Germany and the Czech Republic." Now if Jack Hoban is a 10th Dan and a founding father and the the others are 10th Dans in 1997 ....considered yourself flamed. You might also contact Hatsumi and ask him about Inoue(who was called the weapons master in Japan when he was alive). Inoue was older and also trained by ninjas when he was young. One other point to consider re dan gradings is that in olden Japan in the time of the samurai there were no gradings but there were people of different levels of skill. So, when did gradings start to happen? Ninjitsu was also supposed to have come from China, like Judo (not the modern sport form) it has been claimed by the Japanese due to clever marketing/propaganda. Anyway young fella, you have been given some material above to consider. Think on it for a while. Regards, Peter Gow Australia    --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest