Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:23:57 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #35 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Dogzilla's First Day (Marc Denny) 2. Re: RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments (DenverAMA@aol.com) 3. 15th Dan (Ernie Aragon, Jr.) 4. Jay de Leon's Questions (decuerdas@softcom.net) 5. RE: Dogzilla's First Day (David Whitley) 6. Re: Jay de Leon's Questions (jay de leon) 7. Re: 15th Dan (Thomas Reinhold) 8. Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. (KGodhania@aol.com) 9. RE: Re: 15th Dan (Mike Casto) 10. RE: Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. (Mike Casto) 11. RE: Re: 15th Dan (Steve Kohn) 12. Re: Jay de Leon's Questions (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:34:14 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Dogzilla's First Day Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: We have just posted at www.dogbrothers.com a third action clip titled "Dogzilla's First Day". Yip! Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:57:48 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you Peter. :-) Dear Carlo, I base my information on the last two journeys to Japan which were quiet some years ago. Also you should do your research in more depth, as I personally trained with some of the guys that were mentioned and at that time there was no-one I repeat no one in Japan graded higher than a 10th dan, even some heads of various styles did not have a 10th dan grading. You really should be asking yourself - Why is that? Tell me do you know the difference between a fifth dan and a sixth dan? Anyway I am not agueing with you I have better things to do than that. If you don't have the necessaries to ask for proof then don't ask but it doesn't change my mind. THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXCEPT FROM BUJIKAN "The 1997 U.S. TaiKai lasted four days. It was held in Somerset, New Jersey, and was hosted by shidoshi Jack Hoban. Fifteen people who had attained the rank of 10th dan attended, including Stephen K. Hayes and Bud Malmstrom who along with Hoban are considered the founding fathers of ninjutsu in America. Altogether 600 people--the most so far for this event--attended, including students from Canada, England, Japan, Sweden, Germany and the Czech Republic." Now if Jack Hoban is a 10th Dan and a founding father and the the others are 10th Dans in 1997 ....considered yourself flamed. You might also contact Hatsumi and ask him about Inoue(who was called the weapons master in Japan when he was alive). Inoue was older and also trained by ninjas when he was young. One other point to consider re dan gradings is that in olden Japan in the time of the samurai there were no gradings but there were people of different levels of skill. So, when did gradings start to happen? Ninjitsu was also supposed to have come from China, like Judo (not the modern sport form) it has been claimed by the Japanese due to clever marketing/propaganda. Anyway young fella, you have been given some material above to consider. Think on it for a while. Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:25:52 +0800 From: "Ernie Aragon, Jr." To: Subject: [Eskrima] 15th Dan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter, I agree with what was previously said. Ranking systems are just that - ranking systems within a style. Since they vary and are sometimes somewhat arbitrary, one possessing a certain rank in one system should not be compared to another one possessing a similar sounding rank with another system. I've been through at least two different karate styles. In both systems, the instructors had different opinions on what skill sets and skill levels one should attain to be awarded the black belt. In one system I was awarded by the instructor a black belt which I refused since I my other instructor in the other system didn't consider me qualified yet to be a black belt in his system of karate. In retrospect, I believe I made the wrong decision since my other instructor considered this as an insult to his ability to judge and rank people. I can blame it on my youth then but still the harm has been done. I really regret it. What I should have done was simply acknowledge that it was like comparing apples to oranges. In taekwondo, the redbelt is an intermediate level belt. In some styles of kungfu, the red belt is equivalent to the black belt in other systems. In the style of kali, I'm practicing, we have two sets of levels depending on whose lineage you follow. The masters of old did not have a systematized ranking system then. So, with this in mind, it is not that ludicrous to have someone have the rank of 15th dan. I've heard that in some lineages of Kara-ho kempo, there have been people who have reached 11th , 12th and even 15th dan. It's not that they're better fighters than the 4th dans elsewhere but they're better than those who are in their own system. Finally, in some Japanese system like kendo, the hachidan or the 8th dan is the highest dan that can be attained through skill alone. The 9th and 10th dans are attained through contributions to the system, e.g. like helping make the art more popular by promoting it overseas, by establishing strong institutions or schools, training champions, etc. With this, it is not that unthinkable that there will be people with ranks of higher than 10th dan. That's my two cents worth. Ernie Aragon, Jr. Message: 3 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:03:44 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] 15th Dan Really - C'mon Guys Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A 15th Dan A! I find it rather interesting that anyone would make that type of claim. Also I wonder what Dr. Hamimitsu - according to other people he is supposed to be one of the last ninjas and he is only a 10th dan. Inoue Motokatsu who passed on, a couple of years ago was the real deal and he was a hanshi - an eighth dan - this man had been training since childhood until into his seventies. Yamaguji was also a 10th dan and he was the head of the Goju style in Japan. Asa matter of fact all the heads of the Japanese styles have never to my knowledge been higher than a 10th dan. I ASK THE PERSON WHO IS MAKING THIS CLAIM TO SCAN THEIR GRADING CERTIFICATE AND PUT IT ON THE WEB FOR US TO SEE OR SEND A COPY TO THE ESCRIMA DIGEST! EITHER PUT UP OR WITHDRAW THE CLAIM. Just my 2cents. Peter Gow Australia. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: To: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 05:57:30 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Jay de Leon's Questions Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Jay de Leon Thank You for your interest (1) I excepted the Title from Gm Richard Tenio with two conditions. 1. The first, if Retired GM Richard Tenio ever wants his tile back. I will gladly give it back. This I swear. 2. Permission to create my own system for two reason. To protect my school and students from False GM's and to protect my late instructors from any errors I do. First: I have created my own branch for two reasons. This came about when one False GM person after Gilbert Tenio's death, came up to me and said He was the Grandmaster of Tenio's DeCuerdas. I advised him to back off and told him who I was. This was the first time I seen this person. He had never even stepped in our school. This scared me. I talked to GM Dentoy Revillar about the matter. He advised me to created my own branch to protect instructors honor and my students. The old policy of you can tell the leader in a crowd. By the first movements and his combative skills. This does not apply at this time and age where people rather talk about it. (You know the web) If they talk long enough unskilled people will believe. I have promoted my teachers art in Stockton where for the first time: Three schools got together and did a Grandmasters Seminar: Gm Vincent Cabales for Serrada, Gm Tony Semora for Bahala Na and I taught for Gm Richard Tenio for three years. I teach outside Stockton to. Second: To protect my instructors honor from me I know my place, I know I will never be as good as my Instructors. But, I will try. For this reason I will teach the way my instructor taught. But, I know that he created an individual who has progressed and will continue to progress in the future. I no longer have a instructor. So, I will cross train with other systems of the FMA"S and MA's in general. This will create a problem. To protect Gilbert Tenio from any errors I do or say. Let, it fall on my system or shoulders and not his. This will keep this system intact. (2) Jay, Before I came to play. Both Dentoy and John studied with Angel. Then they both studied under Gilbert Tenio. It was the triangle that I came to know. Dentoy went to Leo Giron to further his studies. He create his own school and system of Serrada, Largo Mano and DeCuerdas having more emphasizes of Serrada. SLD John stayed under Gilbert Tenio and ran his school. Our Academy was born. Then it was called just DeCuerdas Escrima. So, their was two schools Dentoys and John's As for Dentoy Revillar he is my hero, the best escrimador I know. He is fascinating. I Visit him. You should visit him. GM Dentoy has a superior school. Master Bobby Atuna helps runs Dentoy's School. I'm honored that he corrects me. Jay call me if you wish. Cell 209- 481-1904 Thank You! GM Arthur Gonzalez --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "David Whitley" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Dogzilla's First Day Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:15:08 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Very Cool, Crafty. Very very cool. [IMAGE] ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Marc Denny" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: Subject: [Eskrima] Dogzilla's First Day Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:34:14 -0800 Woof All: We have just posted at www.dogbrothers.com a third action clip titled "Dogzilla's First Day". Yip! Crafty Dog _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:30:49 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Jay de Leon's Questions To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GM Gonzalez : Thank you for the detailed answer. I admire the way you give credit to all your guros and peers. Since I fancy myself an FMA historian and writer, I will file your answers for reference purposes. Thank you for the offer, I intend to call you and email you privately for further discussions. Salamt po, Jay de Leon decuerdas@softcom.net wrote: Mr. Jay de Leon Thank You for your interest --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:47:43 +0100 From: Thomas Reinhold To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 15th Dan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > There is a website that reports on people falsely claiming military > service. How about another that exposes fake masters. Hi, have a look at www.bullshido.com. Regards, Thomas --__--__-- Message: 8 From: KGodhania@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:02:07 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, Trust this email finds you well. I would be most grateful - if you could post the following on the eskrima digest. Grandmaster Vicente "Inting" Carin - legendary cebuano eskrimador, sadly passed away in the latter part of December 2004. Inting - as he was fondly known to students and friends, was one of the top fighters in the Doce Pares Club. Well known for accepting challenges, and for using his skills in a number of life threatening situations - Inting was a universally respected eskrimador. He taught various styles, some of these were Herada, Ritirada, Sombra, Depensa todo etc. The eskrima world has lost one of it's all-time greats, but his legacy survives with his sons. I've also just been advised from Tony Veeck's Balintawak group - that their Grandmaster Arnulfo L. Mongcal also passed away on January 15th 2005. GM Mongcal was one of the top students of Balintawak founder - Venancio "Ansiong" Bacon. Another major loss for the eskrima world. Krishna Godhania Institute of Filipino Martial Arts - UK. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: 15th Dan Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:21:53 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The thing to remember about these sites is that while the intention is good they often end up with stuff posted out there based on little or no reliable info or for political reasons. This happened to one of my instructors. Some people looked at his website and, rather than go check him out in person they decided, based solely on his website, that he was a fake and posted all sorts of allegations about him on a site similar to bullshido.com. So take what you read there and at similar sites with a grain of salt. For that matter, the same is true of some of the military sites. If they're not an official military site then take them with a grain of salt because you don't know that their information is any more accurate or verified than any other you may find. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Reinhold [mailto:mail@thomasreinhold.de] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:48 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 15th Dan > There is a website that reports on people falsely claiming military > service. How about another that exposes fake masters. Hi, have a look at www.bullshido.com. Regards, Thomas _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:23:45 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Wow! I hadn't heard this yet. I never met GM Carin but have heard many stories about him from GM Cacoy Canete and from Sifu Richard Bustillo. Sad to hear about both of these legends dying. It's inevitable but still a shame when it finally happens. Mike -----Original Message----- From: rterry@idiom.com [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] On Behalf Of KGodhania@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 2:02 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. Hi Ray, Trust this email finds you well. I would be most grateful - if you could post the following on the eskrima digest. Grandmaster Vicente "Inting" Carin - legendary cebuano eskrimador, sadly passed away in the latter part of December 2004. Inting - as he was fondly known to students and friends, was one of the top fighters in the Doce Pares Club. Well known for accepting challenges, and for using his skills in a number of life threatening situations - Inting was a universally respected eskrimador. He taught various styles, some of these were Herada, Ritirada, Sombra, Depensa todo etc. The eskrima world has lost one of it's all-time greats, but his legacy survives with his sons. I've also just been advised from Tony Veeck's Balintawak group - that their Grandmaster Arnulfo L. Mongcal also passed away on January 15th 2005. GM Mongcal was one of the top students of Balintawak founder - Venancio "Ansiong" Bacon. Another major loss for the eskrima world. Krishna Godhania Institute of Filipino Martial Arts - UK. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:53:59 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: 15th Dan To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net True...but any system of ranking is subject to political bulls**t. Its going to happen as long as one person can out-rank another. Sad but true. Regards, Steve Kohn Mike Casto wrote: The thing to remember about these sites is that while the intention is good they often end up with stuff posted out there based on little or no reliable info or for political reasons. This happened to one of my instructors. Some people looked at his website and, rather than go check him out in person they decided, based solely on his website, that he was a fake and posted all sorts of allegations about him on a site similar to bullshido.com. So take what you read there and at similar sites with a grain of salt. For that matter, the same is true of some of the military sites. If they're not an official military site then take them with a grain of salt because you don't know that their information is any more accurate or verified than any other you may find. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Reinhold [mailto:mail@thomasreinhold.de] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:48 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 15th Dan > There is a website that reports on people falsely claiming military > service. How about another that exposes fake masters. Hi, have a look at www.bullshido.com. Regards, Thomas _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:07:04 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Jay de Leon's Questions To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay, I agree with you. That may have been the most humble way to give credit to ones instructors I've ever read. GM Gonzalez comes off like a good man. Additionally, he may have given one of the best reasons for starting your own system...to guard your intructors reputation from damage based your own mistakes. Good stuff. Best, Steve Kohn jay de leon wrote: GM Gonzalez : Thank you for the detailed answer. I admire the way you give credit to all your guros and peers. Since I fancy myself an FMA historian and writer, I will file your answers for reference purposes. Thank you for the offer, I intend to call you and email you privately for further discussions. Salamt po, Jay de Leon decuerdas@softcom.net wrote: Mr. Jay de Leon Thank You for your interest --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest