Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:05:20 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #37 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. (jay de leon) 2. Re: RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments (WoodyTX) 3. 15th dan (Steven Lefebvre) 4. Re: RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments (stickfighter@charter.net) 5. 15th dan (Steven Lefebvre) 6. Re: 15th dan (Jared Dame) 7. Self-defence with a Walking-stick (Erol Weber) 8. [Eskrima] (Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical) 9. RE: [Eskrima] (Mike Casto) 10. Re: Self-defence with a Walking-stick (jay de leon) 11. Re: 15th dan (Steve Kohn) 12. Re: [Eskrima] (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inting Carin and Arnulfo Mongcal. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my article "The Toughest Fighters in the History of Filipino Martial Arts" published by WorldBlackBelt online magazine on Nov. 2, 2004, I featured GM Carin. At the time the article was published, only 3 of the 10 people featured were still alive, "Inting" Carin being one of them. The FMA has lost a truly legendary eskrima warrior. Sumalangit nawa. (May be rest in peace.) Jay de Leon KGodhania@aol.com wrote: Grandmaster Vicente "Inting" Carin - legendary cebuano eskrimador, sadly passed away in the latter part of December 2004. Inting - as he was fondly known to students and friends, was one of the top fighters in the Doce Pares Club. Well known for accepting challenges, and for using his skills in a number of life threatening situations - Inting was a universally respected eskrimador. He taught various styles, some of these were Herada, Ritirada, Sombra, Depensa todo etc. The eskrima world has lost one of it's all-time greats, but his legacy survives with his sons. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:16:08 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Okay, I'm remembering back over twenty years, to when I was a geeky kid interested in everything Ninja (and this was the early '80s). So I'll probably get this wrong.... I remember from Hatsumi and Hayes' books that the Ninja were Japanese, although some Chinese influence was probably involved. Their religion was not the native animist Shinto or imported Confuscianism, but rather a branch of Tibetan Tantric Buddhism by way of China. It was very unpopular among the ruling class, and was allegedly one of the reasons for the persecution of the Iga and Koga provinces and the rise of the Ninja. (I can't believe I remember all this.) Anyway, the Ninja fanboys have done a number on the art, at least in my opinion. Sometimes success is a worse fate than continued hardship. WoodyTX On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:38:22 +0000, barry meadows wrote: > Ninjitso and Judo "Influenced" absolutly,but coming directly from the main > land..??? > Im not so sure of that part. > > >Ninjitsu was also supposed to have come from China, like Judo (not the > >modern sport form) it has been claimed by the Japanese due to clever > >marketing/propaganda. > > > >>Regards, > > > >Peter Gow --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:58:33 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] 15th dan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Several years ago, Soke Hatsumi did create the 11th - 15th dan ranking system. I have to agree it is very strange to go and add something like this, but it is Soke Hastumi's perogative to do so. How different is creating a new rank level than adding one to the traditional FMA systems? Rank should always be "earned" , through time, dedicated practice, skill level and support for the system being practiced. What has changed in the recent years is everyone wants to gain rank without the hard and long trek it should take. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:09:42 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have been reading this thread a 15th Dan over the last several days and on this as most, I read, I smile and delete. But this time I decided to add to it. Here is goes--- I have been studying and teaching for over 25 years and met several people that use 10 th Dan , 8th Dan, Master instructor, grand master to describe there level of knowledge. I have also seen many proclaim I'M A BLACK BELT!!! I have also met and trained with people that are very low key about what the know and their rank. I have found that the first group most often, but not always could not apply themself to save their own life if they had to. Then there is a low key person, that you can spend years learning from and are amazing practioners! I have found this mostly in the FMA group. There title is given to them by their students. My point is a belt is just that a belt something to hold up one's pants up. A title like Grand Master, Master instructor, or levels 5-6-7-8-9-10-15th Dan is just that a level that most often is self promoted. Learner beware for those that use this as their calling card! Asking the question about (15th Dan?) should always be questioned and should not be excepted with out observing ability and level of knowledge. In closing I have only meet a very few instructors that would qualify in this group and all of these shy away from such things and only see themself as old student on their own path of learning and prefer to be call by their sir name. Just my opinion and is only worth the screen it is written on. On the path seeking knowledge not a title. Mac > > From: "Peter Gow" > Date: 2005/01/26 Wed PM 11:50:21 GMT > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] RE: 15th Dan and Shallow Comments > > Dear Carlo, > > I base my information on the last two journeys to Japan which were quiet > some years ago. Also you should do your research in more depth, as I > personally trained with some of the guys that were mentioned and at that > time there was no-one I repeat no one in Japan graded higher than a 10th > dan, even some heads of? various styles did not have a 10th dan grading. > You really should be asking yourself - Why is that? Tell me do you know > the difference between a fifth dan and a sixth dan? > > Anyway I am not agueing with you I have better things to do than that. If > you don't have the necessaries to ask for proof then don't ask but it > doesn't change my mind. > > THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXCEPT FROM BUJIKAN > > "The 1997 U.S. TaiKai lasted four days.? It was held in Somerset, New > Jersey, and was hosted by shidoshi Jack Hoban.? Fifteen people who had > attained the rank of 10th dan attended, including Stephen K. Hayes and > Bud Malmstrom who along with Hoban are considered the founding fathers of > ninjutsu in America. ? Altogether 600 people--the most so far for this > event--attended, including students from Canada, England, Japan, Sweden, > Germany and the Czech Republic." > > Now if Jack Hoban is a 10th Dan and a founding father and the the others > are 10th Dans in 1997 ....considered yourself flamed. > > You might also contact Hatsumi and ask him about Inoue(who was called the > weapons master in Japan when he was alive). Inoue was older and also > trained by ninjas when he was young. > > One other point to consider re dan gradings is that in olden Japan in the > time of the samurai there were no gradings but there were people of > different levels of skill. So, when did gradings start to happen? > > Ninjitsu was also supposed to have?come from?China, like Judo (not the > modern sport form)?it has been claimed by the Japanese due to clever > marketing/propaganda. > > Anyway young fella, you have been given some?material above?to?consider. > Think on it for a while. > > Regards, > > Peter Gow > > Australia? > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:54:35 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] 15th dan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, When Soke Hatsumi created the next 5 dan rankings, many people said the same thing everyone is saying here "What the Heck???" !!! As Soke Hatsumi has the right to add to his level of system rankings(I still don't understand why he did??), here is something to think on as well, Why was the belt system added to the FMA's?? Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:01:16 -0700 From: Jared Dame To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 15th dan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree that many people now what that instant gratification of their black belt, and want and need the respect that a ranking system has, but lets face it if a 11th to 15th Dan got into a knife fight on the street and was having an "off-day" they would still bleed like the white belt that was put into a similar perspective. On another note Vunak talks a lot about the killer instinct and that you really don't know whether you have this unique perspective until a situation arises, this would lend me to make the statement that you could have an average street fighter with little to no MA training that would just possess the right nerve and skill to defeat a MA black belt or similar rank in open combat. Just in closing I have great respect for all styles and those that have the discipline to practice and earn rankings within those systems, but lets move back to the FMA unless someone knows of a legendary FMA Ninja! Salamat Po, J On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:58:33 +0000, Steven Lefebvre wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > Several years ago, Soke Hatsumi did create the 11th - 15th dan ranking > system. I have to agree it is very strange to go and add something like > this, but it is Soke Hastumi's perogative to do so. How different is > creating a new rank level than adding one to the traditional FMA systems? > Rank should always be "earned" , through time, dedicated practice, skill > level and support for the system being practiced. What has changed in the > recent years is everyone wants to gain rank without the hard and long trek > it should take. > > Gumagalang > Guro Steve L. > > www.Bujinkandojo.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- Jared Dame jareddame@gmail.com "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Rene Descartes --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 08:49:38 -0800 (PST) From: Erol Weber To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Self-defence with a Walking-stick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fellow FMA practitioners: I turned up a link to the following article on the web, taken from the Journal of Non-lethal Combatives, February 2000: 'Self-defence with a Walking-stick: The Different Methods of Defending Oneself with a Walking-Stick or Umbrella when Attacked under Unequal Conditions (PartI)' Just take a look at the first paragraph below and see if it doesn't spark a bit of curiosity... "It must be understood that the new art of self-defence with a walking-stick, herewith introduced for the first time, differs essentially from single-stick or sword-play; for a man may be a champion in the use of sword or single-stick [EN2] and yet be quite unable to put a walking-stick to any effective use as a weapon of defence. The simple and sufficient reason to account for this is that both in single-stick and sword-play a cut is always taken up by the hilt of the weapon, whereas if you attempted to guard a blow with a walking-stick -- which has no hilt -- in the same way as you would with a sword, the blow would slide down your stick onto your hand and disable you. Therefore, in order to make a stick a real means of self-defence, it has been necessary to devise a system by which one can guard a blow in such a way as to cause it to slide away from the hand instead of toward it, and thus obviate the risk of being disarmed by being hit upon the fingers." Someone else may have previously brought this article to view on this forum before, but here's the next paragraph, just in case you still don't have issues with what he's saying: "After some fifteen years of hard work, such a system has been devised by a Swiss professor of arms, M. Vigny. [EN3] It has recently been assimilated by me into my system of self-defence called "Bartitsu." "In the art of self-defence with a walking-stick, the stick is held in the hand with the thumb overlapping the fingers, and not, as in single-stick or sword-play, with the thumb resting on the blade. The stick is therefore manipulated with the wrist -- and not with the fingers as in sword-play -- and the blows are given by swinging the body on the hips -- and not merely by flips from the elbow. In this way blows can be made so formidable that with an ordinary malacca cane it is possible to sever a man's jugular vein through the collar of his overcoat." I guess he's never heard of Kali. Here's a link to the article for more astounding reading: http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_barton-wright_0200.htm Isang Mundo-Isang Tribo, Erol --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical" To: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:02:16 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] [Eskrima] Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know where I might find a video on how to use the Salat sarong? Kenny --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] [Eskrima] Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:56:11 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://catalog.asianfightingarts.com Mike -----Original Message----- From: Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical [mailto:kborowiec@rudolphresearch.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:02 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] [Eskrima] Does anyone know where I might find a video on how to use the Salat sarong? Kenny _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:19:58 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Self-defence with a Walking-stick To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It appears that the article was written around 1901, so I guess the gentleman can be forgiven for not knowing about Kali. Jay de Leon Erol Weber wrote: Fellow FMA practitioners: I turned up a link to the following article on the web, taken from the Journal of Non-lethal Combatives, February 2000: 'Self-defence with a Walking-stick: The Different Methods of Defending Oneself with a Walking-Stick or Umbrella when Attacked under Unequal Conditions (PartI)' Just take a look at the first paragraph below and see if it doesn't spark a bit of curiosity... snipped I guess he's never heard of Kali. Here's a link to the article for more astounding reading: http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_barton-wright_0200.htm Isang Mundo-Isang Tribo, Erol --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:30:24 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 15th dan To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Why have belt systems been added to the FMA's? One word...commerce. Having a belt system gives the average guy off the street short term goals to work towards so he has tangible proof of his accomplishments. It makes him feel like he's getting something for his money. Having said that...I don't care for either belt systems or the politics that come with them. But then again, I only teach privately. Commercial schools have many things to consider...ike keeping the lights on. I look at it like this. I've been a musician for 25 years and have no ranking to show for it. What I do have is the valued respect of my instructors and peers. That is rank enough for me. My point is, if what we do is truly "art", ranking is not necessary and is certainly not worth arguing over. If a person has skill, it will be clear to all. Elvis Costello had a great quote about music in particular that applies to art in general. He said: "talking about music (or FMAs) is like dancing about architecture". Regards, Steve Kohn Steven Lefebvre wrote: Hello Everyone, When Soke Hatsumi created the next 5 dan rankings, many people said the same thing everyone is saying here "What the Heck???" !!! As Soke Hatsumi has the right to add to his level of system rankings(I still don't understand why he did??), here is something to think on as well, Why was the belt system added to the FMA's?? Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:37:06 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] [Eskrima] To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kenny, Ron Balicki recently completed one. www.pointmanproductions.com -Steve Kohn Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical wrote: Does anyone know where I might find a video on how to use the Salat sarong? Kenny _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest