Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:46:32 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #42 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (George Mason) 2. Re: Falacy of hardwood (WEE Shin Hoe) 3. Re: Belts and Ranking in MA (Felipe Jocano) 4. RE: Falacy of hardwood (Jamie Denny) 5. RE: hardwood vs. rattan (Wieneke, Myron) 6. Video .. Sn Miguel... (Clint Cayson) 7. Re: Bot Jocano and rank (jay de leon) 8. Guava tree wood (jay de leon) 9. Re: belt inflation & Ed Parker Kenpo (Nat Nickele) 10. RE: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:26:10 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: George Mason To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here is an interesting question. Human civilization has been around a good while. We all think of martial arts originating in the orient. But at the same time, we have record of other civilizations going to war way before the time of the origins of martial arts as we know them. What does anyone know of the fighting of these peoples? For example, did the Sumarians have a fighting art? If so what was it? Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:16:58 +0800 From: WEE Shin Hoe To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Falacy of hardwood Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Brian, Living in Borneo, I have the luxury of trying all the exotic woods. Generally, the darker the colour of the woods, the denser it will be. Though the dark woods such as Mahogany or Kamagong are great against blade cuts. They tend to be brittle and shattered easily. Not sure about FMA, but most of the Silat techniques I observed here which uses Kamagong-like sticks against blades do not actually block with a "bang" but rather deflect the weapon. If you would like an impact resistant tropical hardwood, the best I have tried so far are Serangan Batu and wood made of old Guava trees. Sincerely, S. H. Wee >Message: 2 >Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:29:16 -0800 (PST) >From: Brian Hamilton >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Falacy of hardwood >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >OK, I've always heard, and was a proponent of, >everything is inferior to rattan. I was one Ebay the >other day (what a delightful way to make time at work >pass) and got sucked into bidding and winning Kamagong >(AKA "Ironwood") sticks, ignoring my own rule of never >using hardwood. What happens? I shatter the life out >of one 30 minutes into a training session. > >My posed question is: What is everyones take on the >whole hardwood vs. rattan battle? Also did I just get >a bum pair of sticks; are the tropical woods hard >enough for real use? > >thanks > >-Brian --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Belts and Ranking in MA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone, Thought I'd jump in on the topic too.... I followed the discussion on 15th dan etc., and found it interesting. One perspective to consider, as Manong Jorge seems to be saying below (Manong, please correct me if i got it wrong)is that people can and will change the way they do things. That being said, if a head of a system decides to introduce changes into his rank requirements, who's to stop him? It's his responsibility to ensure that his students do deserve the ranks they get from him. So if he decides to introduce 5 more dans beyond 10th, it's up to him to totally justify why he did it the way he did, and why. To whom? His students first and of course to anyone who asks. I also wanted to share some thoughts on the issue of rank in FMA.... I hold the rank of master in GM Ben Lema's system of arnis, but I never refer to myself as master...nor do I want others to. Why? Well, I go by the nickname Bot, and if you add master in front of that...On the other hand, don't. Makes life easier for me :-) OK, kidding aside - I do value the rank I received from Mang Ben, but it carries with it a great deal of responsibility. When mang Ben told me he was going to give me that rank, I (stupidly) asked him, "Mang Ben, are you sure?" Well, he got irritated with me, and said "Of course I'm sure. You've been around long enough. But there's a condition - you have to keep on training with me." Well, OK, that was that. Later on, reflecting on that incident, I realized that just because I got the rank didn't mean I got it all or that I could coast because I had *arrived* somehow. One of the first responsibilities of receiving a rank is that you cannot stop training. The rank is also a declaration of your master's assessment of you, not just your ability. Fail him and you might as well be dead. I talked about this with my friend who also received master's rank at the same time I did. He was even more afraid to receive the rank because it meant that you had to assume more responsibility not just for your own training but also for guiding others who wanted to learn. Who's to say that you could do it right all the time? If you make mistakes, the onus is greater because of the rank. So far we've been discussing this whole issue of rank from a detached, third person perspective. But I know that a lot of guys on this list have high ranks within their respective systems. Most of you have even longer and greater depths of experience than the rest of us. How did you feel when you received the rank you did? Did you also feel scared, if I may use the term? That's something to think about, isn't it? I'd like to hear from everyone about how they felt when they received their ranks. How did it change your outlook? Your answers would certainly put a different flavor on our discussion of rank(s). Respectfully, Bot "Don't call me master" :-) P.S. For those of you who may have copies, Shirotatsu Nakamichi's articles "Pretty Rank" and "Still Pretty Rank" from the now defunct Inside Karate magazine are worth (re)reading every now and then. Great cure for swelled heads :-) --- Jorge Penafiel wrote: . Time and concepts indeed brings changes > but others just do things > more differently, sometimes way overboard. > Hey,,,it's there prerogative, > makes them happy, makes their business successful - > it's commercialism,,,got > to pay the bills and fed the family. So, we may > agree to disagree but that is > Martial Arts today to some. MA purist just wink your > eyes and nod... > Gumagalang, > Jorge V. Penafiel > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jamie Denny" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Falacy of hardwood Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:53:46 -0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Just to put my young and in-experienced point across. I (and all those I train with) use hickory similar to that in a previous post. The stuff lasts forever and certainly the best stuff I have seen. Obviously you want to source it from a good supplier (I have no trouble as we get it directly from the mill). And ensure that it is not too dry. I know its not traditional but it was costing me a fortune in rattan and I have owned and smashed other hardwoods, I have yet to see this stuff fail. I paid 15 GBP for my pair, so for the price you can always try them for yourself. Hope this helps Thanks J --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] hardwood vs. rattan Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:21:03 -0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As mentioned by someone before, a lot of sticks (and furnitures as well) that are advertised as kamagong really isn't. A lot of times its some other heavy wood that's varnished or painted black. Proper cut and treatment of wood is also very important I would think. Example rattan is fire-hardened, don't think they do any such treatments for the generally available "kamagong" sticks (at least those that I've seen/used don't look like they've been hardened). Also, take note that the Philippines is a very humid place while the US is quite dry. Wood that is brought over has a tendency to dry up very quickly and weaken if not "acclimated" properly, and a lot of times even crack or break by itself. For example, trying to bring a Philippine made guitar over by plane is asking for trouble. Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: Brian Hamilton [mailto:brian_s_hamilton@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:47 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] hardwood vs. rattan "Just curious... what did you hit it against?" I broke my stick against rattan meeting angles. Luckily I had decent footwork and was out of the way. I learned this lesson (hardwood breakage is unpredictable) by watching a guy learn it the hard way during a Bando Boar Staff seminar years ago. The guy hard blocked an angle 1 and I cruised right through, I had a "padded" 6 foot staff for feeding. I didn't hurt him but for a second I thought I broke his clavicle since he dropped. His buddy was using the matching stick and later that day it broke. If I remember right Doc looked over and told him he was all right and get up and get back in line. lol "Check out Bahi. A rattan-like hardwood. Not quite as heavy as Kamagong, but it will last far longer in practice or in battle. Ray Terry" Cool; I'll check it out. Any good place to get it? I only trust stuff through KIL and I don't believe they carry Bahi. Thank you for the advice. -Brian __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ============================================================================== This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure. ============================================================================== --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:22:58 -0500 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Video .. Sn Miguel... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Earlwin, If you are referring to the teasing of "Isidro "Idring" Casio", it had nothing to do with the group (ED) or anyone concern. She was teasing but she was talking about "Idring Casio" no one else. That's how Cebuanos or Bisayans find fun out of seriousness. Believe me, he doesn't take that as an abuse or undignified to his ability - I am certainly sure he will find a way to say fun things after that "teasing". I'm a Cebuano and I truly understand what she said about him... "Pagkaulitawo gyud oy" means "looks good and handsome" being politically correct. Clint ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: Earlwin Famor To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, erwin_mos@yahoo.com, jaybatienza@yahoo.com, AVergara@lfp.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:35:39 -0800 Organization: http://go.to/earlwin Subject: [Eskrima] Video > "San Miguel Eskrima Grandmasters" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Holy shit, I just saw the video "San Miguel Eskrima Grandmasters." That has gotta to be the funniest shit I have ever seen! No, I wasn't laughing about the grandmasters, actually, they were awesome, I was just laughing so hard about that lady's banter in the background. I don't know her, but she's hilarious. She reminds me of someone I know. Anyway, I won't tell you the joke, because it only applies to Visayans. Whoever runs Capitol Doce Pares website, please don't ever delete, edit or mute that file. If you know anyone who speaks bisaya, please show them the video. It's the best! Well, I haven't seen the other videos. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:07:35 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bot Jocano and rank To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my current article "The Legendary Founders of Filipino Martial Arts," http://www.worldblackbelt.com , you will find Bot's name listed as one of the senior instructors of Mang Ben's system (originally Lightning Scientific Arnis, now LESKAS). A source told me that with the possible exception of one other individual (Bert Labaniego), there is no other instructor currently active senior to Bot and his contemporaries listed in my article. Bot appears in commercial videos with his instructor, the late Master Elmer Ybanez, filmed many years ago. Don't let this man's self-deprecating literary style fool you. He is as skilled as they come, a real master. Jay de Leon Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi everyone, Thought I'd jump in on the topic too.... I followed the discussion on 15th dan etc., and found it interesting. One perspective to consider, as Manong Jorge seems to be saying below (Manong, please correct me if i got it wrong)is that people can and will change the way they do things. That being said, if a head of a system decides to introduce changes into his rank requirements, who's to stop him? It's his responsibility to ensure that his students do deserve the ranks they get from him. So if he decides to introduce 5 more dans beyond 10th, it's up to him to totally justify why he did it the way he did, and why. To whom? His students first and of course to anyone who asks. I also wanted to share some thoughts on the issue of rank in FMA.... I hold the rank of master in GM Ben Lema's system of arnis, but I never refer to myself as master...nor do I want others to. Why? Well, I go by the nickname Bot, and if you add master in front of that...On the other hand, don't. Makes life easier for me :-) OK, kidding aside - I do value the rank I received from Mang Ben, but it carries with it a great deal of responsibility. When mang Ben told me he was going to give me that rank, I (stupidly) asked him, "Mang Ben, are you sure?" Well, he got irritated with me, and said "Of course I'm sure. You've been around long enough. But there's a condition - you have to keep on training with me." Well, OK, that was that. Later on, reflecting on that incident, I realized that just because I got the rank didn't mean I got it all or that I could coast because I had *arrived* somehow. One of the first responsibilities of receiving a rank is that you cannot stop training. The rank is also a declaration of your master's assessment of you, not just your ability. Fail him and you might as well be dead. I talked about this with my friend who also received master's rank at the same time I did. He was even more afraid to receive the rank because it meant that you had to assume more responsibility not just for your own training but also for guiding others who wanted to learn. Who's to say that you could do it right all the time? If you make mistakes, the onus is greater because of the rank. So far we've been discussing this whole issue of rank from a detached, third person perspective. But I know that a lot of guys on this list have high ranks within their respective systems. Most of you have even longer and greater depths of experience than the rest of us. How did you feel when you received the rank you did? Did you also feel scared, if I may use the term? That's something to think about, isn't it? I'd like to hear from everyone about how they felt when they received their ranks. How did it change your outlook? Your answers would certainly put a different flavor on our discussion of rank(s). Respectfully, Bot "Don't call me master" :-) P.S. For those of you who may have copies, Shirotatsu Nakamichi's articles "Pretty Rank" and "Still Pretty Rank" from the now defunct Inside Karate magazine are worth (re)reading every now and then. Great cure for swelled heads :-) --- Jorge Penafiel wrote: . Time and concepts indeed brings changes > but others just do things > more differently, sometimes way overboard. > Hey,,,it's there prerogative, > makes them happy, makes their business successful - > it's commercialism,,,got > to pay the bills and fed the family. So, we may > agree to disagree but that is > Martial Arts today to some. MA purist just wink your > eyes and nod... > Gumagalang, > Jorge V. Penafiel > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:28:05 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Guava tree wood Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guava trees are also common in the Philippines. As a kid, I had a lot of experience with wood from guava trees. This was what we used to make homemade slingshots. We would look for a fork in the branches shaped like a "Y." We would then use rubber cut up from car tire interiors, and a piece of leather to cradle the stone, and voila, a deadly improvised weapon. I am ashamed to say now, we made slingshots to shoot down birds. Worse, when we got older, we graduated to air rifles, first the Daisy rifles, eventually to the heavy-duty pumped air rifles, which were amazingly deadly accurate. Jay de Leon WEE Shin Hoe wrote:. If you would like an impact resistant tropical hardwood, the best I have tried so far are Serangan Batu and wood made of old Guava trees. Sincerely, S. H. Wee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:31:42 -0700 From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: belt inflation & Ed Parker Kenpo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Mike Casto" wrote: > > Wow. That sure doesn't sound like any Parker Kenpo school I've ever > encountered. I wonder if they were Parker Kenpo at all or if they were just > seeing how long they could get away with using the name. > > Mike I know what you mean. Most Parker people I've met were pretty good MA's. Ed Parker himself was a bad mammajamma. I think the only time (that I know of) that he was blatantly guilty of belt inflation was when he was working with Elvis Presley. For that, I'll cut him some slack :). This EP Kenpo place is up in Mesa or Gilbert, AZ (near Phoenix). I think the instructors name is DePalma. I have never spoken to him personally, so I don't know what's going on, and I don't want to drag his name or Kenpo through the mud (mudslinging is reserved for those I know well, lol). For what it's worth, I hear that they generally focus on forms for competition. The people I encountered from the school however, sincerly believed they were good fighters. Anyone else know anything about it? -Nat --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:08:38 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Personally, I don't think martial arts originated single place. People keep assuming that since the oldest record of formal martial training is in ABC that that must then be where martial arts as a whole originated. As soon as that becomes pretty firmly established archeologists dig up even older records from DEF and it starts all over again. Personally I think that any time you get a group of people together they eventually start fighting for one reason or another. It's part of human nature - in fact, it's part of animal nature. There is no animal that won't fight for something - to protect territory, to protect young, to protect food sources, to protect drinking sources, etc. But humans, being the thinking and analytical creatures we are, took their fighting and systemized it so it could be passed on to future generations more efficiently. It's a logical progression. But if people all over the world were fighting why wouldn't people all over the world develop their own systems of passing the knowledge on? I don't believe in a single source of martial arts. I believe that every culture developed some form of martial arts on one scale or another. In some cultures it developed at grass roots level with different families developing methods of fighting. At others it was at a governmental level and developed to train military troops. And every level between those two. And, I'm sure, there was often cross-pollination between the levels in a society - a young man/woman goes into the military and learns to fight then comes home and teaches his/her children/family how to fight. And, certainly, there was cross-pollination between cultures. Especially when they fought each other. But the thought that martial arts originated in one place and spread from there is, IMO, not very likely. And if it did happen, I think it would have happened so long ago that there will never be a way to prove it one way or the other. At least, that's the way I'll see it until someone *does* prove it one way or the other. But just because some record is the oldest that's been found doesn't mean that it's the origin. I know for a while the oldest record had been found in the Mediterranean region but I think there's been an older record found now. I believe the current winner is in the Mesopotamia region (but I could be wrong). Mike -----Original Message----- From: George Mason [mailto:jazzbear@peoplepc.com] Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:26 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Here is an interesting question. Human civilization has been around a good while. We all think of martial arts originating in the orient. But at the same time, we have record of other civilizations going to war way before the time of the origins of martial arts as we know them. What does anyone know of the fighting of these peoples? For example, did the Sumarians have a fighting art? If so what was it? Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest