Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:25:14 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #44 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DEAR_SOMETHING, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems (WEE Shin Hoe) 2. Re: Bot Jocano and rank (Felipe Jocano) 3. Re: Re: X-treme Belt Ranking (WoodyTX) 4. Karate, Ju Jitsu & Eskrima (Stick & Knife) tournament in Campbell, CA (GES) 5. Re: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (WoodyTX) 6. Re: kamagong (WoodyTX) 7. RE: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (Brian Batson) 8. Re: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (Jared Dame) 9. Re: Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems (George Mason) 10. PI Hardwoods (Clint Cayson) 11. Re: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (George Mason) 12. RE: Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 00:07:28 +0800 From: WEE Shin Hoe To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Guys, For those respectable REAL Sokes on the list. May I suggest that you replaced the white belt with black, and "kyu or Kup" with "dan". So a beginner will start off as 9th dan and gradually works his way up to 1st dan. And replaced the original black belts with says, golden colour belts. I would love to see the faces of those so-called Great Grand Masters when you have ten years old 9th dans flooding the market. Seriously, regardless of the arts, all asian martial arts I know used the word "Teacher" in their native tongues and never a "master" to address an accomplished martial artist. "Sifu/Sensei/Guru/Guro/Cikgu" all carry the same meaning-"teacher" not "master". IMHO, "Teacher" would be a more appropriate word, and deeper in meaning than "instructor" or "master". Just my $0.02. S. H. Wee --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:12:58 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bot Jocano and rank To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Manong Jay: Thanks for the kind words - you should see me blushing here in the internet cafe where I'm writing this :-). If you don't mind, just a slight correction - Lightning Scientific Arnis is still currently in existence. LESKAS (Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System) is a branch of Lightning Scientific Arnis. It's what you would call one of the children :-). Master Elmer taught the LSAI style of arnis within LESKAS, but he also added material that he felt would help the students' development even further. This material was his own innovation, specific only to LESKAS. There are several other active LSAI instructors around in addition to Mang Berty Labaniego: Masters Vic Sanchez, Romy Santos, Romy Valenzuela, Lino Estacio, Lito Torrefranca, Herman Licanto, Mang Polding (sorry I forgot his last name), Boy Villeno, Jun Villeno, Ronald Ramirez,and several more. I can dig up the other names for you if you like. Also part of the LSAI family is Master Roland Dantes. The LSAI family is rather large - the names I mentioned are those that I met in Metro Manila. There are more in Capiz, where Mang Ben came from. I should apologize for putting this up in a public forum - I just realized that if memory serves me right, you had asked for some of these names for your on-line article. I should have sent this material to you a long time ago. My sincere apologies for not having done this earlier. Gumagalang, Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > In my current article "The Legendary Founders of > Filipino Martial Arts," > http://www.worldblackbelt.com , you will find Bot's > name listed as one of the senior instructors of Mang > Ben's system (originally Lightning Scientific Arnis, > now LESKAS). A source told me that with the > possible exception of one other individual (Bert > Labaniego), there is no other instructor currently > active senior to Bot and his contemporaries listed > in my article. > > Bot appears in commercial videos with his > instructor, the late Master Elmer Ybanez, filmed > many years ago. Don't let this man's > self-deprecating literary style fool you. He is as > skilled as they come, a real master. > > Jay de Leon > > Felipe Jocano wrote: > Hi everyone, > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:13:47 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I understand that some trad arts have BBs for kid, teen, and adult classes. Getting one does not mean a dang thing in the other class. However, this should be explained to the student, on a regular basis, and probably reinforced by sparring sessions with the "varsity team". A belt is just that, a belt. Rank should not be compared outside the same class, because they don't signify the same thing. WoodyTX On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:46:06 +0000, barry meadows wrote: > Nat, > I agree.Ive seen the same thing.It is not only silly.But it is also > dangerous for those promoted in such fashion.Unhealthly over-confidence is a > killer every time. > Barry Meadows --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "GES" To: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:23:48 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Karate, Ju Jitsu & Eskrima (Stick & Knife) tournament in Campbell, CA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, For info about a Karate, Ju Jitsu & Eskrima (Stick & Knife) tournament in Campbell, CA go to http://www.shinbukandojo.com and click on the link for the rules and registration package for the March 19 tournament. GS --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:52:23 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Beowulf wrestled Grendel's arm off. Ulysses almost killed (or did kill) a man in the Pankrase competitions after the Trojan War. As long as there have been men, there's been combat. A number of Western arts were lost because of technological advancement. (Firearms made armor obsolete, so techniques for fighting armored opponents were lost, and the rapier became the sword of choice.) The prevalence of firearms in most Western societies over the years has probably helped eradicate their martial arts. (This is not to claim any kind of technological superiority, but just to explain why there aren't more Western fighting schools.) Nobody's got the patent on the punch, and similarity between techniques does not necessarily imply causation. WoodyTX On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:12:08 -0800 (PST), Ray Terry wrote: > > Human civilization has been around a good while. We all think of martial > > arts originating in the orient. But at the same time, we have record of > > other civilizations going to war way before the time of the origins of > > martial arts as we know them. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 01:14:22 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kamagong Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Especially if one of those things hitting the fan was half of your stick.... :-O WoodyTX On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:04:09 -0800, Ryan Greene wrote: > It was quite entertaining for the crowd however, as > it was quite interactive, with ducking the flying kamagong shards and > all. > > It's beautiful wood, but I wouldn't put my faith in it if things hit > the fan. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:15:27 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Brian Batson To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "What does anyone know of the fighting of these peoples? For example, did the Sumarians have a fighting art? If so what was it?" I, personally, don't have an answer to your question. However, you should rest assured that there will probably be some snake oil salesman advertising videos for it in the back of Black Belt magazine in a couple of months. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:33:37 -0700 From: Jared Dame To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net An interesting writeup on "a" history of martial arts. http://www.itf-information.com/information14.htm J On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:08:38 -0500, Mike Casto wrote: > Personally, I don't think martial arts originated single place. People keep > assuming that since the oldest record of formal martial training is in ABC > that that must then be where martial arts as a whole originated. As soon as > that becomes pretty firmly established archeologists dig up even older > records from DEF and it starts all over again. > > Personally I think that any time you get a group of people together they > eventually start fighting for one reason or another. It's part of human > nature - in fact, it's part of animal nature. There is no animal that won't > fight for something - to protect territory, to protect young, to protect > food sources, to protect drinking sources, etc. > > But humans, being the thinking and analytical creatures we are, took their > fighting and systemized it so it could be passed on to future generations > more efficiently. It's a logical progression. But if people all over the > world were fighting why wouldn't people all over the world develop their own > systems of passing the knowledge on? > > I don't believe in a single source of martial arts. I believe that every > culture developed some form of martial arts on one scale or another. In some > cultures it developed at grass roots level with different families > developing methods of fighting. At others it was at a governmental level and > developed to train military troops. And every level between those two. And, > I'm sure, there was often cross-pollination between the levels in a society > - a young man/woman goes into the military and learns to fight then comes > home and teaches his/her children/family how to fight. > > And, certainly, there was cross-pollination between cultures. Especially > when they fought each other. But the thought that martial arts originated in > one place and spread from there is, IMO, not very likely. And if it did > happen, I think it would have happened so long ago that there will never be > a way to prove it one way or the other. > > At least, that's the way I'll see it until someone *does* prove it one way > or the other. But just because some record is the oldest that's been found > doesn't mean that it's the origin. I know for a while the oldest record had > been found in the Mediterranean region but I think there's been an older > record found now. I believe the current winner is in the Mesopotamia region > (but I could be wrong). > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Mason [mailto:jazzbear@peoplepc.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:26 PM > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet > > Here is an interesting question. > > Human civilization has been around a good while. We all think of martial > arts originating in the orient. But at the same time, we have record of > other civilizations going to war way before the time of the origins of > martial arts as we know them. > > What does anyone know of the fighting of these peoples? For example, did > the Sumarians have a fighting art? If so what was it? > > Geo the Bear > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- Jared Dame jareddame@gmail.com "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Rene Descartes --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:50:19 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: George Mason To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net S. H. Wee _______________________________________________ Dear Sir, I must say that I really liked your 2 cents worth that you put in. I have been through a bit of a delema with a lot of this stuff in recent times as well. You see, I have trained in many martial disciplines over the years. And I have black belts in different arts. But the real issue is that I can't see as to where any of that rank really matters. For me, martial arts is just a part of who I am. It isn't the big mystery that so many make it out to be. I think that is one reason that I dislike a lot of what is place on television and in movies. A dear friend of mine that used to be my Aikido instructor once said that he would love to see a film where there was a great martial artist that never fought. Instead, he would train but would always find a better way to solve his disputes. I find that at this point in my life I don't desire violence. When I was younger I used to fight in no-holds-barred matches and all kinds of underground stuff. And I never lost a match. But who really cares? It doesn't matter. What I find that does matter is the fact that once I decided to teach ( and I only do so privately ) is that I was able to help people with their lives and life issues. The arts were just a way in which people could learn to put a handle on things and get back on the true path. I probably sound like some goober here preaching about the arts. And I am sure that there are so many people that know a great deal more than I do. But I do feel that once the ego is taken out of the art that the art will grow much faster and unhampered. When we lay our egos down then we can all come together and learn and not worry about who is the best. This is one reason that I respect Inosanto so much. I have found that he and his people are good quality people. One of my instructors is his student. And I must say that they check the egos at the door. They are just there to have a good time. And here is the real question. At the end of each person's life has he or she done something to put a smile or a warm memory in the heart of another person. Or has he or she left bitterness. It's not what you take with you when you die but what you leave behind that counts. Ok........I am off the soap box. Everyone have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:52:37 -0500 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [Eskrima] PI Hardwoods Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, The way you describe it, sounds like NARRA. If I'm not mistaken (maybe I am) those are hardly seen anywhere in Cebu area. Must have brought in from Mindanao or somewhere in neighboring islands of Cebu. NARRA is the national tree of the PI and it's believed to be the hardest wood - rarely you can buy that in lumber stores, if there is, it's expensive. Clint -- __--__-- From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: "Eskrima Digest (E-mail)" Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:58:25 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] PI hardwoods Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net While we're on the subject, I picked up an unidentified pair of sticks in the PI this summer. Hope someone might be able to positively identify them. Got them from a vendor in Cebu. 28-30"(yep two different sticks). Tapered from the middle to the ends(both). The center is about 1 1/4" and the very tip is around 7/8" and the center has a bit of barely noticeable flatness to it. Didn't even pick up on it until held in the center and twirled. They are sealed somewhat with what almost appears to be acrylic at first glance, not very porous. At first I thought they were Bahi but the shade is what is unusual. It appears they may have been cut near the heartwood. One side(lengthwise) is a nice deep brown but the other half is almost honey colored(could be the acrylic). Definitely heavy sticks but not on the order of Kamagong. Smooth grain between mahogany and bahi. More like mahogany. I really like the sticks. The dual taper makes for a very nice movement and stimulates muscles. Heavy without being tip heavy. Anyone seen sticks like these or think they can identify the species? My guess is more along the lines of Molave but I haven't been able to find definitive pics. Thanks Steve --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:53:40 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: George Mason To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry, Thanks for the insight. I may have to look that up. I do read a great deal. I find it a good thing to do when I am sitting in the floor stretching. Kinda takes the mind off of the pain. LOL I have read a great deal of info on anthropology and on archeology. There are records of battles from as long as man has been on the earth. I agree with you that there must have been some form of fighting even in that time. So I think it would be very difficult for anyone to lay claim to the title of the first martial art. Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:12:22 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Couldn't agree more. I'm a member of that choir :-) Have your friend check out "Silk & Steel". It's a good movie with at least one top notch martial artist - Pan Qing Fu - and, as far as I can remember, there's no fighting in it. At least not physical fighting. It's a dramatization of the actual events surrounding Mark Salzman's trip to China. While there, he got the chance to train with quite a few top notch MAists. One was Pan Qing Fu. When he went to make the movie, as I understand it, they came to the conclusion that no one could properly pull off the role of Pan Qing Fu except the man himself. As far as I can remember, there is no fighting - and certainly no standard MA movie fighting. The conflicts are all either internal, relationship issues between the characters, or problems with the government and political issues. I've got the video around here somewhere but it is still lost in the "recently moved" limbo. You're right, overall, about the Inosanto circles, too. I have run into some in the Inosanto circles that have attitude problems - even some instructors under him. But they're so rare that they're really the exceptions that prove the rule. Mike -----Original Message----- From: George Mason [mailto:jazzbear@peoplepc.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:50 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems S. H. Wee _______________________________________________ Dear Sir, I must say that I really liked your 2 cents worth that you put in. I have been through a bit of a delema with a lot of this stuff in recent times as well. You see, I have trained in many martial disciplines over the years. And I have black belts in different arts. But the real issue is that I can't see as to where any of that rank really matters. For me, martial arts is just a part of who I am. It isn't the big mystery that so many make it out to be. I think that is one reason that I dislike a lot of what is place on television and in movies. A dear friend of mine that used to be my Aikido instructor once said that he would love to see a film where there was a great martial artist that never fought. Instead, he would train but would always find a better way to solve his disputes. I find that at this point in my life I don't desire violence. When I was younger I used to fight in no-holds-barred matches and all kinds of underground stuff. And I never lost a match. But who really cares? It doesn't matter. What I find that does matter is the fact that once I decided to teach ( and I only do so privately ) is that I was able to help people with their lives and life issues. The arts were just a way in which people could learn to put a handle on things and get back on the true path. I probably sound like some goober here preaching about the arts. And I am sure that there are so many people that know a great deal more than I do. But I do feel that once the ego is taken out of the art that the art will grow much faster and unhampered. When we lay our egos down then we can all come together and learn and not worry about who is the best. This is one reason that I respect Inosanto so much. I have found that he and his people are good quality people. One of my instructors is his student. And I must say that they check the egos at the door. They are just there to have a good time. And here is the real question. At the end of each person's life has he or she done something to put a smile or a warm memory in the heart of another person. Or has he or she left bitterness. It's not what you take with you when you die but what you leave behind that counts. Ok........I am off the soap box. Everyone have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest