Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:15:51 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #45 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Guava Tree (Clint Cayson) 2. Re: Bot Jocano and rank (jay de leon) 3. rattan vs. kamagong (rob mulligan) 4. Silk & Steel vs. Iron & Silk (Young Forest) 5. Re: "Silk & Steel" (m0rdant) 6. RE: Silk & Steel vs. Iron & Silk (Mike Casto) 7. One more for the Road !1 (Jorge Penafiel) 8. Re: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet (Todd Ellner) 9. San Miguel Form (Stephen Lamade) 10. Re: X-treme belt ranking systems (Todd Ellner) 11. belt ranks (steven ledwith) 12. Re: Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems (Steve Kohn) 13. LESKAS Seattle Website (Ryan Greene) 14. Manong Lema's arnis (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:13:29 -0500 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Guava Tree Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay, Thanks for the nostalgia. I used to shoot birds with it... (Shameful act), we couldn't find anything that kids can play with, with other kids that have slingshots made of guava trees. Back on the subject, does guava tree easily break? I'm sure it will. It is also slippery once the skin is removed - unless treated. In addition, it's rare to see a straight line too. Clint ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guava trees are also common in the Philippines. As a kid, I had a lot of experience with wood from guava trees. This was what we used to make homemade slingshots. We would look for a fork in the branches shaped like a "Y." We would then use rubber cut up from car tire interiors, and a piece of leather to cradle the stone, and voila, a deadly improvised weapon. I am ashamed to say now; we made slingshots to shoot down birds. Worse, when we got older, we graduated to air rifles, first the Daisy rifles, eventually to the heavy-duty pumped air rifles, which were amazingly deadly accurate. Jay de Leon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bot Jocano and rank To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot: Normally, it's the opposite sex that I cause to blush, but I made an exception in your case. No, I do not mind the correction. I appreciate it. It will go to my reference files. I was aware of a few of the names you mentioned, and their relationship to Mang Ben. But these guys are so talented they are also masters in other styles. Mang Ben's large arnis family is a tribute to his skills and far-reaching influence. If you get a chance, I would be interested in the state of LSAI in the Philippines, post-Mang Ben. Thanks, Jay de Leon Felipe Jocano wrote:Hi Manong Jay: Thanks for the kind words - you should see me blushing here in the internet cafe where I'm writing this :-). If you don't mind, just a slight correction - Lightning Scientific Arnis is still currently in existence. LESKAS (Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System) is a branch of Lightning Scientific Arnis. It's what you would call one of the children :-). Master Elmer taught the LSAI style of arnis within LESKAS, but he also added material that he felt would help the students' development even further. This material was his own innovation, specific only to LESKAS. There are several other active LSAI instructors around in addition to Mang Berty Labaniego: Masters Vic Sanchez, Romy Santos, Romy Valenzuela, Lino Estacio, Lito Torrefranca, Herman Licanto, Mang Polding (sorry I forgot his last name), Boy Villeno, Jun Villeno, Ronald Ramirez,and several more. I can dig up the other names for you if you like. Also part of the LSAI family is Master Roland Dantes. The LSAI family is rather large - the names I mentioned are those that I met in Metro Manila. There are more in Capiz, where Mang Ben came from. I should apologize for putting this up in a public forum - I just realized that if memory serves me right, you had asked for some of these names for your on-line article. I should have sent this material to you a long time ago. My sincere apologies for not having done this earlier. Gumagalang, Bot --- jay de leon wrote: > In my current article "The Legendary Founders of > Filipino Martial Arts," > http://www.worldblackbelt.com , you will find Bot's __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:49:01 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] rattan vs. kamagong Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My 2¢ on the rattan issue. 1: Heavy or light, all rattan has a bit of spring to it, so it’s less likely to break bones in unarmored freefighting. 2: Except for very old dry rattan, it tells you it’s going to break long before it does. 3: When it does finally break, it often will stay intact, (sort of a ratt-chaku) and if it DOES break off, it doesn’t send sharp pointed projectiles at innocent bystanders. 4: Last but not least, IT SMELLS GOOD when the sticks glance off each other. Kamagong looks cool hanging on my wall at home, but I’ll stick(get it?) with rattan for everyday use. I would use the definitely use my kamagong sticks against an intruder in my house. Rob Mulligan www.kwikstik.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:54:59 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Silk & Steel vs. Iron & Silk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Have your friend check out "Silk & Steel". It's a good movie with at least >one top notch martial artist - Pan Qing Fu - and, as far as I can remember, >there's no fighting in it. That'd be "Iron & Silk" actually. >One was Pan Qing Fu. When he went to make the movie, as I understand it, >they came to the conclusion that no one could properly pull off the role of >Pan Qing Fu except the man himself. He's a funny guy. I was at a tournament with a bunch of my students, and he was a guest of honour. A bunch of my guys wanted pictures with him, so I was manning the camera. Pan says, 'hey, you need to have a picture too.' When I declined, he said, 'well, you know I won't be around forever, right?' So, I had a picture taken with him too. Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "m0rdant" To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:18:44 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: "Silk & Steel" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just thought I'd add that the movie is actually called "Iron and Silk" and it was originaly a book by Mark Salzman about his experiences in China. The book is quite fun to read and is written almost as more of a travel guide than a novel. From what I remember it was Pan Qing Fu himself that felt no one else could play him in the movie, and I agree. If they had gotten actors for the roles the movie would have had a very different feel. One of the things I liked most about seeing the movie was that in the book Mark always comments on what a poor martial artist he is, and how he was always a dissappointment to his teachers - what a surprise to see him on screen and realize that he was actually quite good. Another good movie with little to no fighting is Ang Lee's "Pushing Hands". > Message: 12 > From: "Mike Casto" > To: > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:12:22 -0500 > Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Couldn't agree more. I'm a member of that choir :-) > > Have your friend check out "Silk & Steel". It's a good movie with at least > one top notch martial artist - Pan Qing Fu - and, as far as I can > remember, > there's no fighting in it. At least not physical fighting. It's a > dramatization of the actual events surrounding Mark Salzman's trip to > China. > While there, he got the chance to train with quite a few top notch MAists. > One was Pan Qing Fu. When he went to make the movie, as I understand it, > they came to the conclusion that no one could properly pull off the role > of > Pan Qing Fu except the man himself. > > As far as I can remember, there is no fighting - and certainly no standard > MA movie fighting. The conflicts are all either internal, relationship > issues between the characters, or problems with the government and > political > issues. I've got the video around here somewhere but it is still lost in > the > "recently moved" limbo. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Silk & Steel vs. Iron & Silk Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:10:47 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Oops. Yeah. I knew that. "Silk & Steel" is a very good instrumental track by a band called Savatage that I like :-) LOL. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Young Forest [mailto:young_forest@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 12:55 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Silk & Steel vs. Iron & Silk >Have your friend check out "Silk & Steel". It's a good movie with at least >one top notch martial artist - Pan Qing Fu - and, as far as I can remember, >there's no fighting in it. That'd be "Iron & Silk" actually. >One was Pan Qing Fu. When he went to make the movie, as I understand it, >they came to the conclusion that no one could properly pull off the role of >Pan Qing Fu except the man himself. He's a funny guy. I was at a tournament with a bunch of my students, and he was a guest of honour. A bunch of my guys wanted pictures with him, so I was manning the camera. Pan says, 'hey, you need to have a picture too.' When I declined, he said, 'well, you know I won't be around forever, right?' So, I had a picture taken with him too. Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:45:56 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] One more for the Road !1 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Bot,, kamusta and how's UP nowadays??...I saw it last May, 04 and was amazed of the many changes.. Anyhow back to ED and MA ranking and Belt system one more time for the road. Your quote below: "One perspective to consider, as Manong Jorge seems to be saying below (Manong, please correct me if i got it wrong)is that people can and will change the way they do things. That being said, if a head of a system decides to introduce changes into his rank requirements, who's to stop him?" Exactly, change is life inevitable constant including in MA. For now, MA industry is an open field and there is no universal governing unit to foresee or rule out what people can and will do with their system. My sense is I expect to see more changes and variety coming not only in the ranking or belt system as MA people and mentality progresses from traditional, to contemporary, and now modern. Gumagalang, Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:04:36 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Originally, Judo may be from Tibet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net People have always wrestled. It's one of the things that people just _do_. The Sumerians wrestled. The Chinese, Greeks, Hebrews, Polynesians and Inuit wrestled. If you want to ask who "invented" wrestling you'll have to go back to a primitive monkey millions of years ago. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:09:30 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] San Miguel Form Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray asked if there was a video available of Momoy performing the entire San Miguel Form. I'm not aware of one, although the Doce Pares guys in Cebu may have an archival copy. Momoy changed the form on numerous occasions throughout the years, and it got longer and longer. Tom Bisio's students learned the version (and re-worked version, etc.) that Tom learned in the late '70's and early '80's. There is also an "Original San Miguel Form" that appears to be a stripped-down version and is useful for learning basic movements for sparring (although there's nothing wrong with the later version either, in this regard). Part of the reason may have been due to Momoy's love of music; Tom Bisio told us once that during training, Momoy could sometimes be seen off to the side staring off into space, clapping different beats and rhythms. These were almost certainly, if tangently, related to footwork and striking patterns that might appear in the form. Another reason is the desire to repeat certain "bread and butter" combinations and to allow them to surface and re-surface at various parts of the form. The form would therefore be the template upon which free-form movement and sparring combinations would be based. (Note: In a recent post on www.martial talk.com, I noted that the use of a certain 4-strike combination appears off of several differnent footwork patterns as shown by Momoy's students (now teachers) while doing free-form movements. (This is the video that was the subject of recent posts on the ED - and can be found at www.capitaldocepares.com.)) I like to tell my students that if you see a certain combination a lot in the form, pay attention to it because Momoy thought it was important enough to repeat often! Another reason for repitition would be the desire for students to practice body-mechanics, or the desire to present different scenarios. That said, I think that it is probable that there are several versions of the San Miguel Form used by different San Miguel students around the world. I've heard that the one that we practice is somewhat longer than the Doce Pares "San Miguel" form, but there might be a longer version out there taught by someone else. Longer does not necessarily mean better (no jokes please) - it just is. Best, Steve --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:10:14 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme belt ranking systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It all begs the question "Why have a Judo-style ranking system at all?" Most of us aren't teaching classes with dozens and dozens of students; we have a good idea of who is at what level. For instructors anything beyond "Junior teaching under advice", "This guy knows his stuff and is fine on his own" and "Grand Old Master we all look up to" is probably just a status game. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:34:27 -0800 (PST) From: steven ledwith To: eskrimadigest Subject: [Eskrima] belt ranks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the words of oneof my teachers "Is that belt going to fight for you?" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:23:44 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Amen to that. As an adult, I always feel a little moronic calling another man "master". I'll do it out of respect, but its a little creepy. I've met a few people that I would say are master level, but even they didnt ask that we call them anything other than "teacher"...in their native language. Regards, Steve WEE Shin Hoe wrote: Hi Guys, For those respectable REAL Sokes on the list. May I suggest that you replaced the white belt with black, and "kyu or Kup" with "dan". So a beginner will start off as 9th dan and gradually works his way up to 1st dan. And replaced the original black belts with says, golden colour belts. I would love to see the faces of those so-called Great Grand Masters when you have ten years old 9th dans flooding the market. Seriously, regardless of the arts, all asian martial arts I know used the word "Teacher" in their native tongues and never a "master" to address an accomplished martial artist. "Sifu/Sensei/Guru/Guro/Cikgu" all carry the same meaning-"teacher" not "master". IMHO, "Teacher" would be a more appropriate word, and deeper in meaning than "instructor" or "master". Just my $0.02. S. H. Wee _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Ryan Greene" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:51:58 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] LESKAS Seattle Website Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The LESKAS Seattle website just got an overhaul, and you all are welcome to check it out. http://www.leskas.com/ And Bot, how about some current club photos from the Filipino crew? Thanks, Ryan Greene --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:06:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Manong Lema's arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Lightning Scientific Arnis is still currently in > existence. LESKAS (Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System) > is a branch of Lightning Scientific Arnis. It's what > you would call one of the children :-). Master Elmer > taught the LSAI style of arnis within LESKAS, but he > also added material that he felt would help the > students' development even further. This material was > his own innovation, specific only to LESKAS. Bot, Right now in the FMA FAQ I have one entry for both "Lightning Scientific Arnis" and "Lema Scientific Kali Arnis" listing Manong Lema as the founder of both. Would you advise leaving as is or breaking it into two entries? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest