Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:49:33 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #50 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: Bot Jocano and rank (jay de leon) 3. Re: Historically Challenged (gints@worldnet.att.net) 4. Master Don (Marc Denny) 5. Re: Historically Challenged (Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical) 6. Re: Stick weight (Jonathan Broster) 7. Hand Tools Seminar by Dr. Jerome Barber (Absolom Jones) 8. A preacher without a God.... (Bobbe Edmonds) 9. Re: A preacher without a God.... (George Mason) 10. FMA seminar (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:56:23 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: X-treme Belt Ranking Systems To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Shin Hoe, Now your suggestion about the ranks would be real fun, hehehe :-) 10 year old 9th dans.... Seriously, while you noted below that the better term is teacher instead of master, the sad reality I'm beginning to see is that many teachers are either allowing or making their students use the word master to refer to them (the teachers). I found this out when I was with another martial arts teacher and his students kept calling him master. Apparently he wanted it that way. Another teacher was upset when the other students or those he otherwise thought were of lower rank than him didn't call him master. Well, well, well.....It's one thing when you call someone master as a sign of respect. It's another when it's demanded of you. (Place tongue in cheek) Sometimes though I wonder if this whole master business was as result of all those badly dubbed kung-fu movies. You know, the ones that go, (pleading student) "Master, master, please teach me kung fu!" (old man with long hair and wearing robes) "All right I'll teach you my special style, called (insert name here)." Ah, the movies... (Take tongue out of cheek) But being addressed as sifu/guro, etc has its own consequences. One of my teachers once told me about how the title sifu couldn't be taken lightly. Once you're known as a sifu, there's a certain level of expectation not just in terms of martial art performance but also in terms of character. For example, the sifu couldn't just relax and take it easy. He/she had to maintain standards all the time. Even in such seemingly simple things like opening a door - it had to be opened in such a way that the sifu wouldn't be surprised by anyone waiting on the other side. Things like that. I bet if this sort of knowledge was explained more carefully to people wanting to be masters :-) maybe there would be less of them wanting to such. Or again that could be wishful thinking.... Well, that's 5 centavos from me :-) Bot --- WEE Shin Hoe wrote: > Hi Guys, > > For those respectable REAL Sokes on the list. May I > suggest that you replaced the white belt with black, > and "kyu or Kup" with "dan". So a beginner will > start off as 9th dan and gradually works his way up > to 1st dan. And replaced the original black belts > with says, golden colour belts. > > I would love to see the faces of those so-called > Great Grand Masters when you have ten years old 9th > dans flooding the market. > > Seriously, regardless of the arts, all asian martial > arts I know used the word "Teacher" in their native > tongues and never a "master" to address an > accomplished martial artist. > "Sifu/Sensei/Guru/Guro/Cikgu" all carry the same > meaning-"teacher" not "master". IMHO, "Teacher" > would be a more appropriate word, and deeper in > meaning than "instructor" or "master". > > Just my $0.02. > > S. H. Wee > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:30:49 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bot Jocano and rank To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi David: I have no idea. Roland was in civilian clothes, wearing a bright colored polo shirt. If you want some of your pictures available for a future article of mine, I could use them and give you photographer's credit for them. Jay de Leon david foggie wrote: Hi Jay, Just curious about the pics you mentioned of Mang Ben and Guro Roland Dantes. When we visited Mang Ben in 1998, I took a number of photos and video. Do you know if the pics you have are from this time or years before? Thanks. Respectfully, David --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 3 From: gints@att.net (gints@worldnet.att.net) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:49:11 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Historically Challenged Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Peter Gow" > If I took a car and stripped all the parts off the car apart from the > necessary running gear does this mean that I have invented a new car? NO > it doesn't. What if someone disassembles a car and makes a new device from the parts ? > So does that mean by stripping off techniques or leaving off part of the > technique we create a new system? No, we just water down an older system. You're describing distillation. The addition of unnecessary material is dilution or "watering down." Distillation creates new products. I prefer my spirits distilled. > Therefore should we be giving credit to someone that watersdown a system I'd give a lot of credit to one that is able to distill and systematize a collection of seemingly related techniques. There are many aspects to martial arts. Initial organization and periodic reorganization are important. If successive generations of teachers do not grow and prune a collection of knowledge, then successive generations will only learn a subset of the knowledge of the founder. Gints --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 05:46:47 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Master Don Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: > I understand that students > can call their teacher "master" if they respect him, but if > someone demands to be called "master" even by those who have > not ever studied with him, at least I will probably look > elsewhere for a teacher. This reminds of a few years ago before I was teaching my Saturday class at the Inosanto Academy. We needed a place for when it was raining and I made a deal with a teacher of the XYZ style to use his place. However, he like being called Master by anyone who came into his school. I coached my guys accordingly before taking them there the first time and as we arrived I introduced them to "Master Don". As he walked away Hot Dog said "Good thing he is not named Nate." yip! Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Historically Challenged Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:28:46 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe this is exactly what Bruce Lee did. He stripped down several arts to what worked best for him and kept it. This was his philosophy of "Jeet kune do". I put it in quotes because later on he realized by giving the art a name he created a new system and the idea of a system was not what he was trying to relay to his students. So by stripping down the car you do not get a new car but isn't it different from the what the car was originally? Therefore you have a different car not a new car. As for where MA originated is (to me) about as important as where humans originated. It would be nice to know but by now not important. Kenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Gow" To: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:06 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Historically Challenged > Dear Todd, > > Thank you for your reply to our historically challenged investigations. > If I may ask you one question sir? > > If I took a car and stripped all the parts off the car apart from the > necessary running gear does this mean that I have invented a new car? NO > it doesn't. > > So does that mean by stripping off techniques or leaving off part of the > technique we create a new system? No, we just water down an older system. > Therefore should we be giving credit to someone that watersdown a system > - this is the actual question that is under debate from my point of view > and I and some other FMAs and MAs consider this to be a valid point. > > Most intelligent people realize that there is a fuzziness about where the > MAs may have begun and someone hit the nail on the head when they stated > that MAs probably developed concurrently in many geographical locations > at similar time. > > Other people accept what they are told by the various media/propaganda > sources never questioning information but prepared to perpetuate myths. > > Its up to you(or is it), which path you wish to travel. > > Peter Gow > > Australia > > > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:17:45 +0000 From: "Jonathan Broster" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Stick weight Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi I like to use a stick that is fairly short, around 24", but fairly heavy; good solid multi-noded rattan. I hold my stick flush with the bottom; I can still punio like this, but there is less there for someone else to grab or disarm. This is my favorite, but I still think that it is important to train with different lengths and weights of stick. Jon "There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife!" http://www.pecahan.net ... --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Absolom Jones" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 15:38:58 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Hand Tools Seminar by Dr. Jerome Barber Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would like to announce that Dr. Jerome Barber, will be conducting a Hand Tools Seminar on Sunday, February 27, from 1 - 3:30pm at the Red Dragon School of Martial Arts. The school is located in McKinley Mall, near the Sears Store, 3701 McKinley Parkway, Blasdell, NY. The seminar host is Sifu Robert Gott and he can be reached by phone at (716) 822-0222 or e-mail at . The admission fee is $29 paid before Friday, February 25 and $39 at the door. The Hand Tools curriculum is designed to show the participants how to translate their empty hand defensive techniques to the use of small hand tools such as a pocket stick (3" - 5"), yawara stick, Kubaton Keychain, closed pocet knife, ball point pen, belts, ropes or hoops to achieve greater impact and joint-locking outcomes. Dr. Barber's martial arts background includes 6th degree black belts in Pancipanci Eskrima (PG Tom Bolden) and ISSD Kenpo-jitsu (Shihan Ernie McPeek) 3rd degree blackbelts in International Modern Arnis (GM Remy Presas) and Tracy Kenpo Karate (Sensei Ernie McPeek) and 1st degree black belt in Kenpo-Arnis (Sifu Don Zanghi). Dr. Barber, wote the curriculum for a college credit self defense course at Erie Community College, in Orchard Park, NY. That program hs been running continously from 1987 to the present. The ECC program has earned the written approval of GM Remy Presas (1989), PG Tom Bolden (1993) and GM Al Tracy (1993). Absolom --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Bobbe Edmonds" To: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:08:45 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] A preacher without a God.... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi everybody. I wanted to post something on the topics of rank & styles that are going around the list these days. First off, let me say that I love the Filipino and Malay-Indo arts. I have seen no other martial system that advocates flow and sensitivity so deeply, and I have advanced ranks in Wing Chun and Jiu Jitsu, as well as having my fingers in a few other styles I dabble in (Pa Kua, Fencing). That being on the table, there is no pure system, at least, not in my opinion. When you speak of martial styles, or ANYTHING man-made on the face of this planet, you must take that very point into consideration: It was created by a human, and thusly has human failings to it, as well as strengths, no matter how much of a "Genius" the founder was. My father was a thief for most of his life, and although I went an entirely different path in life than he did, he said something to me when I was a boy that has remained with me into adulthood: "Bobbe, if a man made it, then there is a way around it". I have found this saying applicable to almost everything in my life. Nothing is perfect, and whatever martial art you study will be hindered by several things: 1: The national or regional origin of the founder (whatever country he is from will reflect the approach to training) Take a look at the various Asian cultures, and you will see what I mean: Depending on country of origin, different teaching methods are often joined inseparably with the style: The dictatorial drill-instructor method of the Japanese and Korean styles. (This evolves from living in a militaristic society. Korea adopted much of their martial behavior from Japan) The "Endure pain until you get it right" method of Thailand (I actually believe this method is the result of a harsh, poverty-sunk society as opposed to any "tradition".) The mystical and religious based methods of the PI and Malaysia-Indonesia (Again, this seems to be societal, as opposed to traditional. Indonesia is primarily Muslim, and religious training is 90% of their education. In this case, you are actually dealing with the law of probability.) The secretive "Disciple-for-life" guarding method of the Chinese styles. (One would think the Chinese are HORRIBLE carpenters, considering how many style-mythos begin with "He learned the system from peeking through a hole in the wall, door, fence, etc"!) 2: The level of education (martial, philosophical, scholastic) the founder had. This isn't always the case, I have had stellar instructors, particularly in Indonesia, who couldn't read or write. However, it does help preserve the method & intention better when you have a clear understanding of the art and can translate it well to others in an intelligent manner. Also, you can more efficiently guide your students as individual practitioners. 3: Whatever religious influences the founder had. When Karate first came to America, many of the early American Sensei became Buddhists, because they were taught that way from their teachers, who were Buddhists. Americans at that time simply didn't understand the cultural influence religion has on martial arts. Nowadays we see that what is really needed is a moralistic governor to go with the physical art we are training. Any religious influence will usually do, or at least a moralistic approach to teaching fighting skills, particularly weapons-based arts. Lately, many Americans have discovered Islam through the study of Silat, another martial art steeped deeply in religion and mysticism. Most of my teachers in Indonesia cannot separate the religion from the martial. Personally, out of respect I have learned how to overlook it as opposed to try to tell them not to push it on me. 4: Whatever knowledge of other fighting styles the founder had, as well as ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE (with his native people, as well as OTHER STYLES & NATIONALITIES.) This last point is probably the most important, because it will reflect any foresight the founder had. For example, if the creator of the style had never seen a proficient knife fighting style before, his approach to the subject will be minimalist and unrealistic (something I am encountering every time I give a seminar to a style other that my own). It was easier to be a martial arts instructor in the 70's and 80's. There was a mystique about black belts spawned by kung fu movies and Karate dojos that promoted a kind of "No one questions the master" kind of attitude. Bluntly put, the instructor could successfully run a martial arts school with absolutely NO talent for teaching martial arts. Cross training was forbidden, as was developing yourself to be better than your teacher. To this end, many teachers imposed ridiculous strictures on their students, and held back information vital to the growth of their students martially, for their gratification of their own egos. Two events in the early 1990's were cataclysmic in ending this: 1: The first UFC 2: The Internet The UFC was instrumental in breaking down barriers between martial styles, as it showed from the first "No style has everything". Indeed, it further proved many styles were lacking quite a few things! It also demonstrated how a little education goes a long way, as the champions of earlier UFC's were unhorsed later on by others who had not studied the reigning style (i.e. Gracie Jiu Jitsu) simply a few techniques on how to counter it. The internet was the final nail in the coffin, as information became more readily available to those willing to spend some time researching web sites. Suddenly, you didn't have to take your instructor at face value, if his claims or rank seemed a little suspicious, you could usually verify it in one evening without leaving your house. Later, more and more people began to post curriculum & techniques from different styles, students of different instructors began to compare notes, and eventually entire styles were posted on web pages, in an effort to upstage everyone else. This was the kiss of death for the old-style instructor, because the potential student was armed with information he or she would normally not have, and much less susceptible to the mythos of the "Sensei". The instructor's word was now just one ingredient, whereas it used to be the whole pie. A common malady in martial arts is the point of view of the founder becomes dogma after a few generations. The fanatical wide-eyed followers of the holy man of legend, and the mystical madness the fall willingly, LEAP JOYOUSLY into. Soon this gives rise to the "Our style has everything" mythos that is so prevalent in martial arts today, and the arrogance the prohibits any real growth. Many martial artists are just as handicapped by their style as they are enhanced by it. Again, this is due to lack of foresight, the inflexible attitude of "We (insert style here) always do it THIS way". Often I have seen practitioners sacrifice a sensible, logical and effective technique, concept or theory, in favor of what his style dictates. This mental rigidity will lead a style into stagnation and death quicker than a Republican at an AIDS-Awareness meeting. Think about it: You never hear water saying "In my style, we flow around the LEFT side of the rock"! Oh jeez, did I say all of this out loud? Baboy Bobbe Edmonds Edmonds Martial Arts Academy www.emaa.us "Brooklyn: Even the Dodgers left it" --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:34:59 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: George Mason To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A preacher without a God.... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bobbe Edmonds, I must say that I enjoyed your post about ranks and styles. It really made a great deal of sense to me. I remember when I first got started in the arts that it seemed that we had the mentality that you were talking about. We all thought that our instructor was a gift from God and that he knew all things in combat. Well, I got my eyes opened in a very interesting manor. I studied Pa Sa Ryu under him for a number of years. Well, just after I got my black belt with him I was talking with a friend of mine and he was telling me about this great instructor that he wanted me to go check out. I thought it sounded like fun and so I went. The guy I went to meet was a student of Dan Inosanto. And it was an awakening to say the least. His intermediate students were able to kick my butt without breaking a sweat. It freaked me out. They were all just a lot better than me. So at the end of the night as politely asked him if he would teach me. He agreed and I studied with them for a long time. Then a while later I met a guy that was an Aikido instructor. And I was interested in learning more about break falls and rolling then what I knew. He said he would make me a deal. He would teach me Aikido in exchange for me being his personal training partner. Sounded good to me. He and I would meet several times a week and would train very hard for about 3 to 4 hours. I guess the point of all of this is: I have great respect for my first teacher in that he gave me a good foundation from which to learn. And I will not disrespect that. But it wasn't until I learned FMA and Aikido that I really started to truly understand martial arts. One of my teachers told me "learn principle not technique. Once you learn principle, technique will follow." Here I am now, thinking of opening my own school eventually. At the same time, it is weird in that I am not sure what to call what I teach or what affiliations to use. And the reason that I consider opening a school is two fold. One is that there are so few around that are willing to embrace the fullness of the arts. And the other is that I truly love to teach. I love people. It has always been my desire to have as many friends as possible. And I love to help people. So I am considering the possibility. I really want there to be a kinship between schools without rivalry. Every school is like a repository of knowledge. If we all remain friends then we can learn so much from each other. Again, thanks for your wonderful and insightful posts. I enjoy reading them. And I learn from all that I read that comes my way. Thanks your bro in the arts Geo the Bear ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:26:45 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: saron@ssd.com, rtm65@sbcglobal.net, edessaramos@solnet.ch Subject: [Eskrima] FMA seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You are all hereby invited to the first of my seminars I am calling "Tipunan" which in Tagalog means "gathering." It will be a gathering of several guros with diverse but authentic, hard-hitting FMA styles, and the idea is to learn, have fun, and promote FMA camaraderie. Salamat po. Jay de Leon Name of seminar : Tipunan (Gathering) No. 1 Host : International Modern Arnis Federation of the Phil. (IMAFP), North America chapter Type of seminar : Filipino Martial Arts Seminar Open to all ages, styles and levels Date : March 5, 2005 Sat. Time : 9:00AM – 1:00PM PM Location Steve Aron’s Academy of Fighting Arts Glendora, CA Instructors Scheduled : Larry Alcuizar – Durex Arnis and Doce Pares Eskrima Steve Aron – Inosanto Kali and Jeet kune do Jay de Leon – Modern Arnis and Inosanto Kali Scope of Seminar : Single stick, double sticks, knife, and espada y daga Counter for counter drills (including tapi-tapi) Combat application Sparring/tournament tips Fee : $ 50.00 at the door 35.00 for members of WorldBlackBelt, IMAFP, Eskrima Digest Contact info Jay de Leon jakkdawg@yahoo.com www.imafp.com 951-894-1452 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest