Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:22:37 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #79 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Socratic Teaching of MA (WoodyTX) 2. To Oliver (Peter Lewis) 3. Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic Teaching of MA (Karol Krauser) 4. Looking for old friends (Frank Stevens) 5. Re:Socratic Method (Jonathan Kessler) 6. Word Power !! (Jorge Penafiel) 7. Reply to John Jacobo (Doug Tucker) 8. re: Socratic Teaching of MA (Marc MacYoung) 9. Cacoy to visit Europe (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:49:55 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic Teaching of MA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Didn't the MA instuctor in Wierd Al's "UHF" do it that way? "Stupid! Stuuuupid!!!" Seriously, make sure you maintain control of the group, before it turns into "argument with the instructor". WoodyTX On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:54:47 -0700, Nat Nickele wrote: > Hey all, > I am toying with the idea of teaching MA to a bunch of complete > newbies using only the socratic method. Maybe making it more like a > lab experience. Has anyone tried this with newbies before? Whadda ya > think? > -Nat --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Peter Lewis" To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:00:41 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] To Oliver Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Oliver Firstly, thank you for your reply to my posting. I certainly agree with Ray Terry that it makes one think, ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Certainly your first posting was very direct in suggesting that Master Yuli Romo and Master Rey Galang may be showing disrespect to the current heir, Master Tony Diego! Certainly the comments made suggest mischief on the part of these two well respected Masters of Kali Ilustrisimo. If you really are a beginner, then perhaps you can be forgiven for making such comments which have caused some offence. However, your contact with Master Erle Montaigue would suggest that you may not be a total beginner after all! Incidentally, the comments concerning Master Yuli were recorded in an interview with Tatang during the mid-1980's and published in the Australasian Fighting Arts magazine. To my knowledge, and I would stand corrected on this, the term 'five pillars' has been used for quite a number of years, and is not a recent party-line as you suggest. The original five pillars were so named because they all had considerable experience in the martial arts as instructors prior to training with Tatang. Master Tony Diego is acknowledged by all people as the rightful heir to the system and this is not in question. My own view is that because Tatang had over 80 years of experience in FMA, it is unlikely that any of the five pillars actually received all of his techniques. Logically, it would be impossible to fit 80 years into 21 years! With this in mind, I think that all of the most senior masters have their own experiences of learning with Tatang, and probably tended to 'specialise.' For example, Master Rey has the Tulisan knife system, or Master Yuli is renowned for using the disarming techniques of Tatang. This is not uncommon in martial arts and I know that the founder of Wado Ryu Karate-Do with 86 years of experience could not teach all to his senior students, including Tatsuo Suzuki Hanshi. All of these respected Masters have so much to offer, and it would be naive to assume otherwise. Concerning Master Yuli Romo, while his techniques may outwardly appear different,this is purely part of his persona. He actually has a very deep understanding of Kali Ilustrisimo and his applications are very much aligned to the concepts and strategies of Tatang. The fact is that the system of GM Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo remains one of the most respected, direct and effective methods of FMA. All of the discussions on this forum are irrelevant to the performance of this art. If you have a genuine interest in learning this art, then you should pursue it without getting concerned over names or politics. Be open to the fact that all senior masters have plenty to offer, and all have considerable strengths. Yours in martial arts Peter Lewis --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 05:13:23 -0800 (PST) From: Karol Krauser Subject: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic Teaching of MA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Nat, Good luck with your experiment ! I often find it hard enough teaching newbies even in a structured format... this being the case I'm not as much into teaching classes as much as individuals in a private lesson setting, of course you still get the what ifs. My reply to what ifs is that everything is theory until the excrement hits the fan, you can say it is tried and true and combat proven but by who and against who...? Of course some things are more probable than others as far as what works and what doesn't in any given situation Example : witik to the head vs. a full on angle one shot to the temple...if you get my meaning. My friend Bobee Edmonds up in the Seattle area has a student who must stay up into the wee hours of the morning figuring out what bizarre questions to ask during the next class...He asks the kinds of questions which stop the whole class to the point that they turn to him and look like where did that come from...? So I guess in answer to your posting is how much patience do you have and how much time do you actually want to spend teaching practical applications or just answering questions and posing questions...? If you get one or two people like the chap I just mentioned you may be spending the whole class answering what ifs....This is just my humble opinion of course... All the best in your decision, Karol "Ungoy" Krauser --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Stevens" To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:12:33 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Looking for old friends Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I thought I would use the list to see if I could catch up with some old friends. Maybe they are on the list. Some of you may know them or of their current whereabouts. We all attended the Aspen Academy in 1980. If you also attended go ahead and chip in. The three I particularly remember and I am looking for are: Jeff Nieland - He was from Laga Vista TX He wrote me a few times but then we lost touch. Richard Paino - He was from Wayne NJ We roomed together for the first month/session Michael Knauff - He was from Libertyville, IL We were sparring partners for the first session. I've heard he continued on and might now be a Guro. Anyways that was a magical time for me. It was my first experience with the fma's and the Aspen Academy was a special place. All the instructor's were top notch, and the people who attended were great. Training was intensive, 8 hours a day - 5 days a week. It changed my martial arts and my whole life. So if you know any of these people and can help me contact them I would appreciate it. My email is HYPERLINK "mailto:frank@mei.net"frank@mei.net Thank you, Frank Stevens -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 2/27/2005 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:11:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Socratic Method Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Nat, Could you describe what that might look like? I'd like to better appreciate your vision before commenting. JK > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 18:54:47 -0700 > From: Nat Nickele > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Socratic Teaching of MA > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hey all, > I am toying with the idea of teaching MA to a bunch > of complete > newbies using only the socratic method. Maybe > making it more like a > lab experience. Has anyone tried this with newbies > before? Whadda ya > think? > -Nat --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:37:34 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Word Power !! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Friends!!! What we have in ED is an open forum primarily for FMA enthusiast writers per say. Sometimes, a few notes do stray out of the box out of the blue but still good. More often too, mind-sets gets misaligned and discords happens especially when names/style/words/incident/situations/etc. are mentioned. Well, for whatever reason/intention/connotation/haste one post his note out, we are not true or perfect writers, mistakes will be made, and the discords are signs of a healthy e-conversation exchange of thoughts that should not be taken out of context or personally "unless specified". However, lets be careful of what we say, quote, imply, and ask for. Syntax and word of choice can make one's sentence offend or irk someone in the forum. It is always good protocol if not sure what to say to just simply say: " I stand corrected, sorry, correct me if I'm wrong, no bad intentions intended, and many more other gentleman ways". This,, we understand and things will be straighten out. Last, lets keep on writing to the Digest and fed each other's minds. Gumagalang; Jorge V. Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Doug Tucker" To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:59:13 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Reply to John Jacobo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net John wrote: None of what has been stated here is new. It is all documented and was even published in several books and magazines released in the past decade, if not more. As they say, “you cannot turn back the hands of time”. The fact that some people are only now questioning or suggesting otherwise is a bit unsettling. Yours in the Arts, John G. Jacobo Hi John, Thanks for your reply. It's always good to hear all sides to these things. You're right of course when you say one cannot turn back the hands of time but I think that there are some truths that aren't always universal and having people questioning them can only be a good thing surely. If the things we believe can't stand up to questioning or scrutiny then maybe it's not the truth but only blind faith. Regards, Doug --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:51:12 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Socratic Teaching of MA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: Nat Nickele > Hey all, > I am toying with the idea of teaching MA to a bunch of complete > newbies using only the socratic method. Maybe making it more like a > lab experience. Has anyone tried this with newbies before? Whadda ya > think? Ummmm for newbies? I'd say go lightly on it. I'm a guy who is often accused of being too far out into intellectual la-la land, and even I tend to keep my use of the Socratic system limited to people who are a lot more advanced. And even then they often either get cranky or get a glazed over expression of "huh?" The problem is however, often the way that intelligentsia use the Socratic method is a disguised attack on your beliefs instead of getting you to really think. Remembering that Socrates made it a habit of asking people questions about what they thought they knew and then revealing holes within that system...and then proceeding to reveal to the benighted souls why he was "right" (Okay so he was bitchslapping straw-men that's another issue entirely). What failed to happen however, is turning the same practice on his own works. Therein lies a serious weakness. How do you know your own stuff works if you haven't had it put it through tests by other people -- tests that you didn't design? In addition, asking people about something they don't know anything about in the first place doesn't help. There are many things that are counter intuitive in the MA, but until you understand the physics, they don't make sense to the average Joe. Now if you limit it to the awareness, avoidance, social factors of personal safety, then yes. But the hard and fast physical stuff? ehhh....metzah, metzah. What I might suggest is something I have been leaning towards. First off is "What is the difference between a basic and a fundamental?" Believe it or not, there is a difference. And I had to go to the dictionary to find it. But to most people they are the same. Not true, there is a lot of overlap in meaning, but there is also a very significant difference. A fundamental is a foundation that a system arises from. A basic can be used to mean that, but it also carries the connotation of teaching -- namely an introduction to a subject. Now this is a very critical distinction because you can be taught a basic without being taught the fundamentals! And many people are. This realization REALLY has "oh shit" implications about people going on about "return to the basics!" and "know your basics!" Because to the average person, you aren't telling them to return to the fundamentals, you are telling them to return to their "easy reader." Let us take the lowly punch for example. That is a basic move that you are first taught when you join the MA...but what are the fundamentals of a punch? What HAS to be there in order for it to work? What are the "primary colors" so to speak that makes up for a punch? Things that must be present in order for that blow to deliver power? Things that if they are lacking all you are doing is waving your arms around? Those are the fundamentals of punching, not just standing there throwing your fist out in the air and admiring yourself in the mirror. This is important because face it, I have all kinds of people who come to me who despite years of training...well, my sixteen year old, 100 pound niece can hit harder than they can. Thing is, the fundamentals of power delivery are demonstrable. And so can be failure when they are not present. So all philosophical babbling aside, these can be empirically demonstrated (Oh BTW, lest anyone think that I am claiming to have discovered the secrets of punching hard, go out and buy a boxing coach a beer and ask him about the "Sweet Science." They can articulate it better than anyone I know...funny because boxers also routinely knock people out with their punches). Once you have figured out what needs to be in a punch, you can tell the students these fundamentals. And believe me, they are always there. THEN, as you work with the students you can ask -- when things go wrong -- what fundamental wasn't there in what he/she was doing? As such the fundamentals also become a check list for self-correction. It's not a secret bunkai, it's not an advanced teaching or technique, it's simply a matter of making sure that your wagon has four wheels. "Guru my wagon isn't rolling easily" "How many wheels are on it?" "Fou...uh...three." In this regard asking questions about what they are doing does become a teaching tool like the Socratic method. For example the explanation of power delivery I came up with is a triangle. On each side you have a word. Range, Structure, Bodymovement. Those are the three fundamentals of power delivery (okay and a whole lot more but let's stick with punching). Lose one or two and things just go to hell in a hand basket. Apply this model to punches and you are going to find what is going wrong with most people's punches. You don't need to do it faster, harder or know the ultimate fighting system, you just have to have your ducks in a row and make sure these three elements are present and correctly combined and you have a pretty effective punch. (If you don't want to come out to Colorado to get punched by me, feel free to stop into a local boxing gym and have them demonstrate how well they can punch using these three fundamentals). Quite honestly, the more advanced you get, the more refined you are doing these fundamentals in your move. So this is one of the first things I teach my students. When they are struggling to get a technique I grill them on "Why didn't that work? What is missing? What are you leaving out?" The answer is always somewhere within the fundamentals. What they're actually doing vs. what they think they are doing (or in as many cases, what they are forgetting to do). But before I can ask them that, they have to know the fundamentals of a punch. It's not that a punch is just a basic as so many people think. Because face it, standing there and doing an "easy reader basic" over and over again does nothing to teach people about the fundamentals. It is understanding the significance of these fundamentals, knowing how to do them, knowing how to apply them on the fly and knowing how to explain their significance that makes for respectively good fighters and good teachers. That's how I use ol' Socrates' method to help people learn faster. Animal --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:02:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Cacoy to visit Europe Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cacoy to visit Europe September by Gabby Malagar Cebu City March 2, 2005 After holding a series of lectures and seminars in the United States starting on April 17, eskrima Grandmaster Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete plans to visit Europe in September. The first seminar will be held in Noy Cacoy's US residence in San Jose City, California. On the other hand, Noy Cacoy's first stop-over in Europe will be in Hamburg, Germany on September 3-4. He will then proceed to Poland on September 10-11 upon invitation of his two disciples in Dominik Sierpiejko and Jan Nycek, who personally came to Cebu last week to formalize the invitation. Noy Cacoy will be in Moscow on September 17-18 before winding up his European Tour on September 24-25 in England where he is expecting more than 200 students attending the seminar. Meanwhile, there will be a world eskrima convention on June 11 in Los Angeles, California. At least 10 Cebuano eskrimadors will represent the country, but they have to undergo a rigid training at the Cacoy Doce Pares World Federation headquarters along C. Padilla Street, this city. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest