Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:17:23 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #87 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Ilustrisima or Illustrisimo or Olustrisimo or Elustrisimo ? (gary) 2. About archived photos Ray Terry posted (John Montes) 3. Re: Re: Socratic MA (WoodyTX) 4. WOOF WOOF WOOF (al sardinas) 5. RE: Ilustrisima or Illustrisimo or Olustrisimo or Elustrisimo ? (Sonny Padilla) 6. Re: Socratic Teaching (Nat Nickele) 7. Re: Re: Socratic Teaching (WoodyTX) 8. Socratic methods (Marc MacYoung) 9. Request for Gat Puno Abon Baet (Doug Tucker) 10. FMA schools or teachers in Anchorage, Alaska (Verzejd@aol.com) 11. Re: Socratic methods (Ray) 12. Re: Socratic methods (WoodyTX) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "gary" To: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:10:03 +0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Ilustrisima or Illustrisimo or Olustrisimo or Elustrisimo ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have been following this topic for a few days, I am a bit confused about what the CORRECT spelling of the Art "Kali Ilustrisimo" ? Is it single "L" or Double "L" ? or both ARE Correct ? In last few posts, some other spelling coming up, like with the letter "O" and "E". In my opinion, the name of a person or an art is VERY important, like the name in your passport, even a single letter different can mean a whole different person. Can anyone in this list can help me to clarify about this ? Thanks in advance. Gary Ma Hong Kong --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:45:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] About archived photos Ray Terry posted Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just checking out the pictures I saw the one titled Mestiza, she resembles some of the ladies in my family (we're mestizos :P ) btw I hadn't been on in awhile Ive had severe bronchitis but Im improving so back to training!!! 1Love, ~John --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:32:33 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Socratic MA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This old grunt (college degree + Infantry enlistment) says Hoo-ah!! Seriously, I used to shoot IPSC-style action pistol back in the early 90s. Draw-fire-move-fire kind of stuff. I wasn't very good, but it was fun, and demanded more than sheer shooting ability. Occasionally a police officer would come out to shoot with us, using the duty gun, duty rig, etc. (This was before the current "tactical mindset" we are seeing in many police officers.) He would almost alway score bottom rank, by a large margin. The good ones came back to try and learn something. The ones who walked away, pretending "that didn't just happen", worry me. WoodyTX On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:44:54 -0800, Marc MacYoung wrote: > Hell, I've had people walk out of seminars because I wasn't telling them > what they wanted to hear about "knife fighting" and/or because I wasn't > impressed with their grunt version of martial arts. On the other hand, I've > also dropped a large number of people using all that "intellectual nonsense" > that they thought I nuts for talking about. Those who stood up and asked > "how'd you do that?" ended up with a deeper understanding than those who > figured it was just some kind of advanced trick that I was doing that they > didn't recognize. > > M --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:04:05 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] WOOF WOOF WOOF Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the editorial section of Black Belt Magazine, April 2005 issue, Robert W. Young writes about three categories of martial artists. The third and last being the middle-of-the-roaders. He describes that a martial artist in this category could be a master of traditional arts or he could be an uber-athlete who does an eclectic mix of arts. He states that two people immediately come in to his mind that are the epitome of the martial arts Chuck Liddell, a master of the traditional arts and the one and only, WOOF WOOF WOOF (can a non-Dog Brother bark?) Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny as the uber-martial artist. Mr. Young writes "they always seek to test what they learn from thee past in the crucible of today's full contact arena." Congratulations to Marc Denny for the recognition!!! Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of The Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Sonny Padilla" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Ilustrisima or Illustrisimo or Olustrisimo or Elustrisimo ? Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:04:18 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gary, Kali Ilustrisimo is correct. Sonny Padilla >From: "gary" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] Ilustrisima or Illustrisimo or Olustrisimo or >Elustrisimo ? >Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:10:03 +0800 > >I have been following this topic for a few days, I am a bit confused about >what the CORRECT spelling of the Art "Kali Ilustrisimo" ? Is it single "L" >or >Double "L" ? or both ARE Correct ? In last few posts, some other spelling >coming up, like with the letter "O" and "E". In my opinion, the name of a >person or an art is VERY important, like the name in your passport, even a >single letter different can mean a whole different person. Can anyone in >this >list can help me to clarify about this ? Thanks in advance. > >Gary Ma >Hong Kong >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:04:36 -0700 From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Socratic Teaching Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey all, Thanx again for all the input that you have given me. I will definately take it into account as I teach. Sounds like it will be tricky ballancing my attention span and theirs. Maybe I'll talk until I see their eyes start to glaze over, and then wake them up by hitting them. :P Since y'all did so well with my last question.... One other thing that I have had trouble with in my teaching experience is relating the importance of verbal de-escalation/identifying bad situations/being on the other side of town when it hits the fan, etc. I grew up in a bad area, but because my parents taught me how to talk/think/run, I was in a very small number of real fights(comparitively). Most students I have had do not understand the importance of these skills. They get the afore mentioned glazed look when I talk about it. Sort of like ED gruberman in the "Boot To The Head" sketch. Any ideas how to convince them, short of droppping them off on the South Side? -Nat --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:23:51 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Socratic Teaching Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Paraphrasing my father: "If I find out you've been fighting when you could have backed away, I'll personally kick your butt." With the prevalence of knives and other weapons on the street (especially in the nastier parts of town), you may remind them that they could win the fistfight hands down. It's the knifing that follows that will get them. WoodyTX On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:04:36 -0700, Nat Nickele wrote: > Since y'all did so well with my last question.... > One other thing that I have had trouble with in my teaching experience > is relating the importance of verbal de-escalation/identifying bad > situations/being on the other side of town when it hits the fan, etc. > Any ideas how to convince them, short of droppping them > off on the South Side? > -Nat --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:32:07 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Socratic methods Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray said > I'd say the old way of teaching, some still teach this way, is Socratic > in nature. > The teacher would hit or disarm the student until they figured out how to > block or counter. > If they didn't counter the technique the first time or two the teacher > would > offer a hint, e.g. try using your shield-side forearm. If you still > didn't > get it they would give you more hints until you figured out how to counter > the technique. The instructor -guided- the student to discover the > counter, > they didn't simply demo the counter at the get-go. > The approach works with people that already have some skill, but imho > doesn't > work that well on those with little skill or little training (not > necessarily > the same). Of course the students are highly motivated to learn quickly > as > it tends to, at least slightly, reduce the amount of pain that one > receives. Ya know that's interesting. One of the problems I am working with right now is the different bodymechanics and getting students not to automatically drop into a particular type of movement -- as so many people are trained to do. Different bodymovements generate different force and angles. Getting too ingrained in one set of response patterns is going to get you teeth kicked in when you run into something different. Thing is I have met all kinds of people who are trained to move their bodies a certain way and it doesn't matter what is happening, that is what they do. They're on autopilot. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what other system they are doing, they are --functionally -- just adding on different handwork to the old style bodymovement (which is why you see so much silat flavored karate, silat flavored kali, kali flavored TKD etc, etc. Basically someone retains the body mechanics of their original style, sticks the handwork onto it and claims that they know the second style). The problem with this is that there is a tendency to stick with old patterns that have proven themselves most effective instead of really adding in new concepts. I currently have a student who is one hell of a JKD/Krav player. I mean this guy is good and in the ring, he'd kick my ass seven ways to Sunday. But since we aren't playing by ring rules he's in trouble. He instinctively ducks to the side without leaving anything between he and I to keep me from reacting. His body mechanics are always functioning to create and deal with a punch -- so quite often he finds himself with screwed up orientation. On top of that, since I live to hijack the bodymechanics of trained fighters, the fact that he is always stepping into that position to punch makes it easy to do so. I mean face it. He's going to step there and turn his hips and the sun is going to rise tomorrow in the East. It's that predictable. What's hard is breaking him of this habit because face it, it works so well in the conditions that his previous training was designed for (i.e. the ring). The problem with using the Socratic system as you describe is he is not aware of what he is doing. His training is that ingrained now and he is pretty much at a loss to do any thing else. As long as I keep on feeding him a particular style's attacks he'll do fine. He is instinctively moving to a position that he has learned will keep him from getting punched -- but it doesn't work against other types of attacks (bad news, I six categories of attack up my sleeve and punching is only a small subset of one) What you are describing will work very well to reinforce certain pre-existing behaviors/ideas, but do you really think it will help the student understand the limitations of said move? (e.g. when not to do it or what circumstances it doesn't work?). Or will it just enforce it? Their primary goal is not to get hurt and under those circumstances how likely is the student to find something new, or are they more likely to just cobble something together based on preexisting assumptions and training? Granted that it will ingrain those better and faster, but in these days of "you never know what you are going to be facing", do you want to do that to a student? Now if your goal is to get someone deeper into a particular system this is fine, but it becomes a whole lot more problematic for the student if they are going to be facing a wider variety of attacks than how one system does things. I mean how many times has someone left one school where he/she was pretty adept and walked into a new school to get clobbered until he/she figures out how it is done in that school? It isn't that the old system didn't work, it's that it was just a little too specific in how it did things. Come to think of it, how many times have you folks had this happen at seminars? M --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Doug Tucker" To: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:16:39 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Request for Gat Puno Abon Baet Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Sir, I will be travelling to Taguig City in July and hope to make the trip to Paete to look at the full contact tournament there. Could you please let me know the necessary details - date, time, location of tournament etc etc. Also, I am aware that the competion is full contact and with live sticks, no armour, but are there any conditions for entering and what are the rules of engagement? Are they agreed upon by the two combatants prior to each fight? Thanks in advance. Doug --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Verzejd@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:41:43 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA schools or teachers in Anchorage, Alaska Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know of any in Anchorage? Maraming salamat, Kuya Eric --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic methods To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:04:46 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > The problem with this is that there is a tendency to stick with old patterns > that have proven themselves most effective instead of really adding in new > concepts. I currently have a student who is one hell of a JKD/Krav player. I > mean this guy is good and in the ring, he'd kick my ass seven ways to > Sunday. But since we aren't playing by ring rules he's in trouble. You lost me already. Ring? As in boxing ring or kickboxing ring or MMA ring or ? I would assume MMA ring given you reference JKD/Krav training. ?? If MMA, what are the rules that have given him poor habits? > What you are describing will work very well to reinforce certain > pre-existing behaviors/ideas, but do you really think it will help the > student understand the limitations of said move? (e.g. when not to do it or > what circumstances it doesn't work?). Or will it just enforce it? Their If you don't block the technique or counter the technique you get hit or hurt. You learn how to deal with situations. As you learn... the techniques change so that you learn to deal with more and more complex situations. So, yes, you also learn when not to do something since doing it means you get hit or hurt more during your training. But maybe I'm not following you...??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:21:21 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic methods Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Videotape does wonders for showing someone their bad habits. There's nothing like watching yourself hunker down and plant your heels on the floor mid-fight to get you to finally start using footwork. WoodyTX On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:32:07 -0800, Marc MacYoung wrote: > Ya know that's interesting. One of the problems I am working with right now > is the different bodymechanics and getting students not to automatically > drop into a particular type of movement -- as so many people are trained to > do. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest