Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:05:09 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #89 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. WOOF Part Two (Marc Denny) 2. Re: Breaking "old movement styles that work" (Jonathan Kessler) 3. Re:Socratic teaching & video tape (Nat Nickele) 4. Re:Alive training (Beungood8@aol.com) 5. Re: Re:Alive training (Santos Hernandez) 6. Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers (Buz Grover) 7. Re: Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers (WoodyTX) 8. RE: Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:02:55 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] WOOF Part Two Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof: Al S wrote > Subject: [Eskrima] WOOF WOOF WOOF > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > In the editorial section of Black Belt Magazine, April 2005 issue, Robert W. > Young writes about three categories of martial artists. The third and last > being the middle-of-the-roaders. He describes that a martial artist in this > category could be a master of traditional arts or he could be an > uber-athlete who does an eclectic mix of arts. He states that two people > immediately come in to his mind that are the epitome of the martial arts > Chuck Liddell, a master of the traditional arts and the one and only, WOOF > WOOF WOOF (can a non-Dog Brother bark?) Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny as the > uber-martial artist. Mr. Young writes "they always seek to test what they > learn from thee past in the crucible of today's full contact arena." > > Congratulations to Marc Denny for the recognition!!! Tail wags for the kind words Al. The column began with noting that some traditional people pooh pooh anything not old, and that many MMA players pooh pooh anything that is. He then used Chuck and me as examples of those who seek the merit in both approaches and credit out teachers. I didn't understand Mr. Young's words to mean that Chuck was TA and I was the uber-athlete, rather that both of us respected and appreciated what had been shared with us even as we explore its meaning. Example: Occasionally I surf through the Underground Forum at mma.tv It is definitely a MMA crowd over there, and one can find disparaging commentary about Kali (e.g. some of the comments in a thread titled "Does anyone still train Kali?") and Silat. In a recent thread titled "What is Silat?" several disparaged it. Herewith my response: BEGIN Tail wags for the kind words BJJWrestler. Q: If a silat takedown calls for ripping the medial meniscus of the knee, how does one train that safely upon a resisting opponent? A: IMHO part of the answer may lay in what Guro Inosanto calls "quarter lever" technical training wherein the correct leverage is identified but applied only a little bit. Part of the answer lies in BJJ/wrestling type training. And part of the answer lies in working with training partners who have done both quarter lever and BJJ. In other words, both need to have an understanding of the risks/consequences of silat techniques, a sense of what uncooperative people feel like, AND the ability to roll at partial intensity without accelerating. END Guro Inosanto speaks of training with long term benefit, mid term benefit, and short term benefit. Now that I am a thoroughly middle-aged geezer, I find things of the sort whose applicability most people doubt actually appearing in my game that were planted in the 1980s. These things couldn't appear without my also having done BJJ and Dog Brothers Stickfighting, but since I have done these things, these things do appear-- and with them I extend being a man to be reckoned with. What more can one ask? The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:16:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Breaking "old movement styles that work" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, Interesting question. As I recall, there's a story about you learning a similar lesson (about how a movement style that had previously worked well for you getting you into trouble), and I'm guessing that you learned it well. How did YOU take that event and turn it into a "lesson learned"? Perhaps there is something there that you can identify and that can help your student. JK --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:44:32 -0700 From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Socratic teaching & video tape Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Videotape does wonders for showing someone their bad habits. There's nothing like watching yourself hunker down and plant your heels on the floor mid-fight to get you to finally start using footwork." -WoodyTX Woody, you are a genius! That is the best idea I've heard all day. Students can argue with me, but not with the instant replay. The problem is, can my ego handle it? ;P I am about to become preoccupied with buying a video camera. Thanx, -Nat --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:12:23 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Alive training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/8/2005 11:21:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Draw-fire-move-fire kind of stuff. I wasn't very good, but it was fun, and demanded more than sheer shooting ability. Occasionally a police officer would come out to shoot with us, using the duty gun, duty rig, etc. (This was before the current "tactical mindset" we are seeing in many police officers.) He would almost alway score bottom rank, by a large margin. The good ones came back to try and learn something. The ones who walked away, pretending "that didn't just happen", worry me. I am with Woody on his last statement. I am a Police Officer and former Grunt and have had the benefit of police style shooting and also shoot and move style training and a Swat school held by a retired SAS Trooper. I also had the luck to have a watch commander who would let me and my partner come in off the road on slow nights and shoot downstairs in the range. We utilized old door frames and wooden barriers(actually construction debris) and we conducted our own shoot on the move training and any other scenario we could dream up. We often would kill a case or two of shotgun ammo in addition to pistol if we did transitions. Our boss l smiled when we did it(and after seeing our shoulders),but, most of our rank and file thought we were slightly off and worried about us. I only had to remember shooting with them and THAT worried me .... Salamat, JAck O New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls/Mongrel Combatives --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:29:50 -0800 (PST) From: Santos Hernandez Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re:Alive training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I notice your e-mail, it mention Police Officer and New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls. I am too but also have worked on Special Use of Force team. I am at my post I have been trying to find out who or where is a cert. Instructor in Pekiti-Tirsia. Call at work 617-343-4410 ask for Officer Santos. Thanks --- Beungood8@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/8/2005 11:21:02 P.M. Eastern > Standard Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Draw-fire-move-fire kind of stuff. I wasn't very > good, but it > was fun, and demanded more than sheer shooting > ability. > > Occasionally a police officer would come out to > shoot with us, using > the duty gun, duty rig, etc. (This was before the > current "tactical > mindset" we are seeing in many police officers.) He > would almost > alway score bottom rank, by a large margin. > > The good ones came back to try and learn something. > The ones who > walked away, pretending "that didn't just happen", > worry me. > > > > > I am with Woody on his last statement. I am a > Police Officer and former > Grunt and have had the benefit of police style > shooting and also shoot and move > style training and a Swat school held by a retired > SAS Trooper. I also had > the luck to have a watch commander who would let me > and my partner come in off > the road on slow nights and shoot downstairs in the > range. We utilized old > door frames and wooden barriers(actually > construction debris) and we > conducted our own shoot on the move training and any > other scenario we could dream > up. We often would kill a case or two of shotgun > ammo in addition to pistol if > we did transitions. Our boss l smiled when we did > it(and after seeing our > shoulders),but, most of our rank and file thought we > were slightly off and > worried about us. I only had to remember shooting > with them and THAT worried me > .... > > Salamat, > > JAck O > New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls/Mongrel > Combatives > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Buz Grover Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:19:20 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've been following the Socratic teaching discussion and think a lot of interesting points have been made. I've begun wondering, however, who has time to teach using a method that requires a small group or, better yet, one-on-one mentoring? Or perhaps more succinctly, who can afford to teach this way? Gotta pay the bills somehow so if grasshopper/master is the model then either the grasshopper is getting soaked or the master has low overhead. I realize the question is rhetorical--there are a lot of ways to deal with the economic end--but that raises other big picture questions. For instance, I think rhythm is an important thing to teach, though it's an element that IMHO resists Socratic inquiry. All the time in the restaurant biz I'd figure out what a new cook's rhythm was and then make sure my training had a beat that worked to the way he moved. Though I'm not qualified to do any formal MA instruction, I find rhythm lessons work their way into a lot of training situations, too. My kids and I, for instance, have an endless weekend padded stick battle going. Whenever I figure it's time to end the flailing about I usually hit 'em with a combo--bip, bap, bop--trap, disarm, or neutralize their weapon, and then hit 'em with a finishing move. I don't think they realize it, but I'm willing to bet if they ever have to fend off someone with a stick that bip, bap, bop, trap, finish will emerge on its own. I've learned over the years that pontificating about the importance rhythm leads to a lot of glazed looks, while if I just sneak it in there people lap it up without thinking and without resorting to any Socratic thumb twiddling. There's another Socratic consideration missing from the current discussion: in what circumstances is it a waste of time? As I've dabbled in sundry MAs over the years I've bumped into a lot of folks who I'd simply not waste my time on. Lotta mutants and fools out there trying to learn MAs for all the wrong reasons; who's got the time to draw wisdom out of slack-jawed testosterone-addled bumpkins hoping to be an add water and stir Steve Seagal? Bottom line is that I think Socratic inquiry is a good tool to have in the box, though it's hardly the holistic instructional grail some people make it out to be. Also wanted to chime in on WoodyTX's cop remarks. Not looking to offend any LEOs out there--and indeed have hung with many who were topnotch in myriad ways--but I have run into a lot of cops that were absolutely ossified when it came to the range or the mat. Think I was 17 or so when I first encountered the syndrome: me and a bunch of JDs were out in the woods camping with some cops. One of 'em had taken some self-defense type seminar the previous week, knew I had some MA training, and so wanted to show me his nifty moves. Tried to do a hip throw on me, but I'm tall, he couldn't get any leverage, and his mechanics sucked. He tried several times, I got tired of the sport and so stepped around and swept him. He got pissed, tried to muscle me around 'til I hip threw him. Calmer heads entered the fray, but I had to spend the next several years dodging street payback. Think the problem in a nutshell is you gotta smack ossified officers upside the head pretty hard to break through, but that smack usually leaves 'em fingering their handcuffs. I'm curious if anyone has discovered a way to break through that doesn't involve a starched uniform and a bunch of filigree on the collar. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:38:13 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ossified officers? Ossifers? :-P Seriously, your question "how to break through" reminded me of the scene in "Man On Fire" when Denzel tells the little girl that there's no "better" and "worse", just "trained" and "untrained". And then proceeds to show her. When you see that glazed look, resist the doughnut comments and remind them that _nobody_ was born knowing this stuff. WoodyTX On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:19:20 -0500, Buz Grover wrote: > I'm curious if anyone has > discovered a way to break through that doesn't involve a starched > uniform and a bunch of filigree on the collar. > > Regards, > > Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:05:59 -0500 Organization: I.M.P.A.C.T. Academy of Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Absolutely. I loved "Man on Fire." There were so many good lines and thought provoking moments. And that line is among my favorites. My favorite, of course, is from Christopher Walken when he says, "you can be an artist at anything ... Creasy's art is death and he's about to paint his masterpiece." I love that line on so many levels. Mike -----Original Message----- From: WoodyTX [mailto:woodytx@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:38 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic Holistic Grail & Ossified Officers Ossified officers? Ossifers? :-P Seriously, your question "how to break through" reminded me of the scene in "Man On Fire" when Denzel tells the little girl that there's no "better" and "worse", just "trained" and "untrained". And then proceeds to show her. When you see that glazed look, resist the doughnut comments and remind them that _nobody_ was born knowing this stuff. WoodyTX On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:19:20 -0500, Buz Grover wrote: > I'm curious if anyone has > discovered a way to break through that doesn't involve a starched > uniform and a bunch of filigree on the collar. > > Regards, > > Buz Grover _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest