Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:17:50 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #90 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Socratic methods (Marc MacYoung) 2. Subject: Re: WOOF Part Two (Karol Krauser) 3. classers (Fanjuraji Bakbakarma) 4. Re: Re: Socratic methods (Ray) 5. Re: classers (Aaron Alejandro) 6. Re: Socratic Holistic Grail (Ray) 7. Re:Pekiti-Tirsia (Beungood8@aol.com) 8. Manual of the Baratero (Ray) 9. Re: Manual of the Baratero (Christopher Umbs) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:30:22 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Socratic methods Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I said: >I currently have a student who is one hell of a JKD/Krav player. I >> mean this guy is good and in the ring, he'd kick my ass seven ways to >> Sunday. But since we aren't playing by ring rules he's in trouble. > From: Ray > You lost me already. Ring? As in boxing ring or kickboxing ring or MMA > ring > or ? I would assume MMA ring given you reference JKD/Krav training. ?? Well while he hasn't tried to give me a cuddle, we haven't gotten to the "let's not go to the floor...and if you do, here's what you do" part of training. I am somewhat paranoid about going to the deck ever since I saw a guy nearly kicked to death when he went down. (six weeks in the hospital because about twenty people decided to start kicking and stomping him...when they finally dragged him to his feet the comment was "Hey, he can still walk, let's break his legs" They did). So the idea of MMA ring rules just don't come home to roost with me...especially because unless I am trying to control someone in a one-on-one defensive tactics situation, I am more prone to gouge someone's eye out for taking me to the ground. To my lizard brain being taken to the floor is *BAD* that's why to this day , I wear two long fingernails (thumb and pinky) for the purpose, I really don't want to meet the grappler who is so tough that he can take me lacerating his optic nerve with a claw. The ground scares me because of the homicides committed without out weapons in 2004, most of them occurred when the person was on the ground. See why when someone starts going on about how effective grappling is for "streetfighting" I begin to cross my eyes and suck in my cheeks? That part of me is going "Nononononono! Not good! Not good!" Grappling is an important skill set to have, but more important is knowing when and where it is time to use it. > If MMA, what are the rules that have given him poor habits? He still attacks in a sports manner. If all we were doing was boxing or kickboxing, I'd be toast because he jumps in fires off a series of impact attacks and then darts back before his opponent returns the favor. If we were going for number of hits instead of effectively putting a stop to his attack, I'd be toast. The kid is much, much younger and faster than I am. > If you don't block the technique or counter the technique you get hit or > hurt. Actually I and a fella by the name of Tristan Sutrisno (www.silat-video.com) are in the middle of putting to bed the final edits on a book about "Error Detection in the MA" through Lyons Press. Although we use hard style techniques to demonstrate the concepts, we really address a lot of the problems that arise in all kinds of martial arts, not because the student isn't doing the technique "right" (i.e. exactly as he was taught) but rather that there has been some serious signal decay in what is being taught. Yeah, what the person is doing is exactly what he was taught, but what he was taught has some serious components missing. Hell, I've seen lots of people block a technique and still get hit. The problem isn't with them "blocking" the problem is with what they were taught as blocking. Or rather what they weren't taught about effective blocking. When it comes down to it my techniques may not be the most crisp, clean and pretty, but they get the job done. However, in comparison to Tristan, I move like a pregnant yak...and he gets the job done in half the time. His understanding of the martial arts has had me on multiple occassions woodpeckering my head against the wall, cussing myself saying "You moron! It's so obvious! Why didn't you see that years ago!" In many ways the man has made me eat crow over many of the bad things I have said about the martial arts over the years. While on the other, he has also confirmed exactly why much of what I was saying about ineffectiveness and dangerous flaws in systems suffering signal decay was spot on even if I was phrasing it wrong. It wasn't the MA that was the problem, it was what was being peddled as the MA that had problems. >You learn how to deal with situations. > As you learn... the techniques > change so that you learn to deal with more and more complex situations. > So, > yes, you also learn when not to do something since doing it means you get > hit or hurt more during your training. Ya know, as someone who had to learn the hard way, I was kind of hoping to see if I could help some folks learn in a less painful manner. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:32:46 -0800 (PST) From: Karol Krauser To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Subject: Re: WOOF Part Two Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Crafty, In regard to your last response...at what point in training does one enter the realm of being a boni-fied middle aged geiser..? In all honesty I have often thought and commented that in Western Society where the knowledge of the elderly is oftend disgarded and tossed to the curb, years in practice and study of martial arts even in an advanced aged still carry value. Perhaps it stems from the legends of the OLD masters in the Karate Kid, Remo Williams or Chinese Kung Fu movies. However it works I intend to maintain my enthusiasm into advanced years. How else can guys in their thirties, forties, fifties or beyond justify grappling, and playing with sticks and knives like young boys and still call it a discipline and quest for higher development and self improvement..? Ungoy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:00:57 -0800 (PST) From: Fanjuraji Bakbakarma To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] classers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hello I am new. Interested in the sticks and knife in Plano, Allen or Mckinney Texas areas. Any information on teachers of Filipino Arts would be nice. Thank. Fanju --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Socratic methods To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:40:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >I currently have a student who is one hell of a JKD/Krav player. I > >> mean this guy is good and in the ring, he'd kick my ass seven ways to > >> Sunday. But since we aren't playing by ring rules he's in trouble. > > > From: Ray > > You lost me already. Ring? As in boxing ring or kickboxing ring or MMA > > ring > > or ? I would assume MMA ring given you reference JKD/Krav training. ?? > > Well while he hasn't tried to give me a cuddle, we haven't gotten to the > "let's not go to the floor...and if you do, here's what you do" part of > training. I am somewhat paranoid about going to the deck ever since I saw a > guy nearly kicked to death when he went down. (six weeks in the hospital > because about twenty people decided to start kicking and stomping him...when > they finally dragged him to his feet the comment was "Hey, he can still > walk, let's break his legs" They did). I was just trying to determine what type of ring you alluded to. No one will dispute that going to the ground can end up being bad, but it very frequently happens. Better be well prepared... nuff said. > So the idea of MMA ring rules just don't come home to roost with > me...especially because unless I am trying to control someone in a > one-on-one defensive tactics situation, I am more prone to gouge someone's > eye out for taking me to the ground. To my lizard brain being taken to the > floor is *BAD* that's why to this day , I wear two long fingernails (thumb > and pinky) for the purpose, I really don't want to meet the grappler who is > so tough that he can take me lacerating his optic nerve with a claw. That may work well on a pure wrestler. An MMA street grappler will be ready for and expecting that as it is about the first thing people try when in that position. > > If MMA, what are the rules that have given him poor habits? > > He still attacks in a sports manner. If all we were doing was boxing or > kickboxing, I'd be toast because he jumps in fires off a series of impact > attacks and then darts back before his opponent returns the favor. If we > were going for number of hits instead of effectively putting a stop to his > attack, I'd be toast. The kid is much, much younger and faster than I am. So he is a boxer / kickboxer? Yet he is a Krav Maga guy? I'm just confused as to what this person is and how good they are at it. KM and boxing or kickboxing don't seem to go well together. But all of this isn't really important. I was just confused as to how your earlier post was a comment on the old style (socratic method) of teaching, esp in the FMAs. FWIW, those that have learned 1-on-1 with someone like Cacoy Canete will know of what I speak wrt to old style teaching. It was the way Johnny LaCoste taught. I hear it was the way Pedoy taught. Tatang? etc. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] classers Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:49:09 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fanju, I would like to recommend a training group in Dallas known as Dallas Combatives (www.dallascombatives.com). They are an affiliate of Warriors Way International which is a very well respected group of martial artists. In particular, this training group focuses on Sayoc Kali but also trains the other arts associated with Warriors Way International: jun fan gung fu, Lacoste/Inosanto Kali, Maphilindo Silat and JKD grappling. The instructors there are professional and know their material well. Good Luck, Aaron Alejandro www.execselfdefense.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fanjuraji Bakbakarma" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:00 AM Subject: [Eskrima] classers > hello I am new. > Interested in the sticks and knife in Plano, Allen or Mckinney Texas > areas. > Any information on teachers of Filipino Arts would be nice. > Thank. > > Fanju > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Socratic Holistic Grail To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:26:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I've been following the Socratic teaching discussion and think a lot of > interesting points have been made. I've begun wondering, however, who > has time to teach using a method that requires a small group or, better > yet, one-on-one mentoring? Or perhaps more succinctly, who can afford > to teach this way? Gotta pay the bills somehow so if grasshopper/master > is the model then either the grasshopper is getting soaked or the > master has low overhead. I would agree. It is a 1-on-1 approach. But it seems 'back in the day' classes were less common, 1-on-1 was more common. Some may think I am in favor of this type of teaching. Not really. I find that learning via a more structured approach works best for me. fwtw... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:04:23 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Pekiti-Tirsia Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/10/2005 7:02:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I am at my post I have been trying to find out who or where is a cert. Instructor in Pekiti-Tirsia. Call at work 617-343-4410 ask for Officer Santos. Thanks I think we have some mutual friends. I will give you a call! Jack --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:38:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Manual of the Baratero Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have received my review copy, but haven't had a chance to read it yet. But here are a couple of reviews of listmember James' new book. I'm sure it is another winner from him... Ray ---------------------------------------------------------------- 2 reviews on James Loriega's new book "Manual of the Baratero (or the Art of Handling the Navaja, the Knife, and the Scissors of the Gypsies)" First, Pete Kautz's review: http://www.modernknives.com/mkreview1.htm Second, Ken "The Shark" Pfrenger's review: ============================= I got my copy of Mr Loriega MdB in the mail the day before yesterday. I sat down and read it from cover to cover last night and can say that I am very very happy with it. The book starts with an excellent foreweard written by Maestro Ramon Martinez which I found very interesting. He had told me once several years ago at ISMAC that his father had shown him not only some boxing but some traditional knife skills as well...here he recounts the early experiences with the short blade. It then moves forward to an introduction by the author that includes a section on the actual translation process which is very interesting and another on the illustrations then finally it moves to tell of the baratero and the world they lived and fought in. Next comes the English translation of the text...which you will find is quite a bit more understandable and coherant than the one found on the net. This section contains many comments from Mr Loriega that really bring the picture into better focus. After the actual translation he has a brief chapter that probably caused our old buddy snick to give birth to a full sized calf....LOL Manual del Disparatero! He follows this with an original language copy of the MdB and a very handy Syllabus based on the MdB. Overall a great work that has been too long in coming. It makes a nice companion book to Sevellian Steel and deserves a place on every blade enthusiasts bookshelf. As Allen Reed said, it is not a complete system to follow and Mr Loriega himself talks about some of the flaws in the style within the book. Still, it has great worth IMO and gives us an indepth look at mid 19th century Spanish knifework. While he points out the flaws he also mentions that the MdB contains the most basic of knife skills and should serve as a starting point. The best thing I can say about this book though is...I really enjoyed reading it. It was well written and illustrated and kept my interest enough to make me want to read it all in one sitting....perhaps holding my attention for the length of time to read a relatively short work should not be that impressive but I will say that for a book that had the potential to be a dry translation that this was not the case in the least. Go Buy a few copies for your friends! ken ============================= Peace favor your sword (IH), Kirk --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:23:49 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Umbs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Manual of the Baratero Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net --- Ray wrote: (...) Second, Ken "The Shark" Pfrenger's review: (...) The book starts with an excellent foreweard written by Maestro Ramon Martinez which I found very interesting. He had told me once several years ago at ISMAC that his father had shown him not only some boxing but some traditional knife skills as well...here he recounts the early experiences with the short blade. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- When I decided to start entering FMA tournaments, M. Martinez showed me the basics before sending me on to M. Loriega.  One can't just go into the Martinez Academy and ask to learn knife though - it was only because I've been a sword student of his for years.  When I did take my first class with Loriega, I was pleased to see that their idea of the basics seemed to match up.   Chris It then moves forward to an introduction by the author that includes a section on the actual translation process which is very interesting and another on the illustrations then finally it moves to tell of the baratero and the world they lived and fought in. Next comes the English translation of the text...which you will find is quite a bit more understandable and coherant than the one found on the net. This section contains many comments from Mr Loriega that really bring the picture into better focus. After the actual translation he has a brief chapter that probably caused our old buddy snick to give birth to a full sized calf....LOL Manual del Disparatero! He follows this with an original language copy of the MdB and a very handy Syllabus based on the MdB. Overall a great work that has been too long in coming. It makes a nice companion book to Sevellian Steel and deserves a place on every blade enthusiasts bookshelf. As Allen Reed said, it is not a complete system to follow and Mr Loriega himself talks about some of the flaws in the style within the book. Still, it has great worth IMO and gives us an indepth look at mid 19th century Spanish knifework. While he points out the flaws he also mentions that the MdB contains the most basic of knife skills and should serve as a starting point. The best thing I can say about this book though is...I really enjoyed reading it. It was well written and illustrated and kept my interest enough to make me want to read it all in one sitting....perhaps holding my attention for the length of time to read a relatively short work should not be that impressive but I will say that for a book that had the potential to be a dry translation that this was not the case in the least. Go Buy a few copies for your friends! ken ============================= Peace favor your sword (IH), Kirk _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Search all the top search engines on one site! ---> http://www.ezCyberSearch.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest