Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:04:26 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #93 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Lucy (James D Stacy) 2. Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training (Marc MacYoung) 3. Krav changes (Marc MacYoung) 4. re: Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training (All Blade) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:01:58 -0800 From: James D Stacy Subject: [Eskrima] Lucy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was told that she had trained through a connection of the Inosanto School. If you watch Hercules the first season she is on it doing double stick fighting. She does silat as well. James --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:28:19 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Todd wrote: >> As for getting the bejeesus kicked out of you if you go to the ground, > well, >> it may very well happen if there are several of them and you haven't > learned >> how to deal with that. But I have been lucky enough to have met people >> who >> can and who can teach others to do the same. SNIP >> One was an Alaska State Trooper and national Judo coach who had had to > make >> it work. SNIP >> Another gentleman - NYPD's most decorated police officer, nearly sole > survivor of the defunct Street Violent Crimes Unit, Marine with a Vietnam > service record consisting of two dates and a rank, etc. etc. etc. - has > developed a whole groundfighting (not just ground grappling) system that > assumes there will be more than one armed bad guy. Okay...first off, remember I train cops. In fact, I am dropping out of the MA/SD/RBSD/DT/WSD world for a while to return to school to get the degree I need to have more credibility with the administration dinks who are miles away from the front line. The guys on the front line I have credibility with already -- they know what they are facing and how my stuff helps them. Having said this, let me point something out...cops have a totally different goal than anyone else. Their job is to control and subdue a suspect WITHOUT hurting them. And quite frankly, because of this I am a huge advocate for cops knowing grappling and submission fighting. Don't take it there, but know you are going to go there. In the same breath, I am also a hell of a big advocate for them to be in good physical shape, because often when dealing with a combative perp -- if things have gone sideways -- it does boil down to who is in the better shape. Having said this...they're cops. I come from LA under Darryl Gates...that fact is important. If you don't understand it hang on. Many cops become defensive when someone says that "Cops rely too much on the gun and badge." Truth is, back when I was a mean assed street thug it wasn't the gun and badge that kept me from kicking the shit out of cops who were leaning on me too hard. And you know what? About 90% did something that if I wanted to I could have dropped them like a prom dress... I mean they walked right into the crosshairs. What kept me from doing it was two things. One was that most deadly of weapons they had...the pen. A cop with a pen is the most unbeatable foe...he could hang all kinds of paperwork on you. And that spells grief. Second, was the Hell.'s Angels aspect of the Gates era LAPD. If you fight one Hell's Angel, you fight 'em all. If you hit an old LAPD cop back then word spread faster than the black death. IF you ended up in jail instead of the hospital or morgue, your chances weren't good about getting out of jail in one piece. Then your chances of getting to your trial date intact was really low because every cop in the precinct knew who you were and they were gunning for you. I knew a lot of guys who had to leave the area for health reasons because the PD didn't like 'em. Which brings us back to your "Aren't these fighting systems wonderful because cops do them" Coupla' problems. First although the Hell's Angels days are pretty much gone, most people still have a strong aversion to hitting cops. Yes, much less than back then, but the pen still remains a very real threat that keep most people sitting on their hands instead of participating. There is a big assed difference between a drunk blue collar worker helping his buddy who is fighting a cop and a full out stomping by everyone. Much less facing even two very dedicated attackers. In fact, take a look at this little multiple opponent, on the ground clip...and ooopsie, that bad, bad man brought a knife too. Then tell me what kind of expert ground fighting or deadly martial art system you would use http://www.thenolangate.com/prisonmurder.asx (BTW folks, it is a graphic and horrible homicide DON'T follow it unless you have a cast iron stomach.) The correctional officer in the reflection and the one filming it wouldn't have had a chance if they had intervened...which is why they didn't. So where is this supercop fighting system? How about an ultimate fighting system? Oh, and I almost forgot...neither you nor I are cops, so what's our goal in a violent confrontation? And then there is that issue of not having the "protection" of being a cop to keep most of the people at bay while you are busy subduing a perp. That video is what happens on the ground when someone ISN'T trying to control or subdue someone. And it is why it scares the shit out of me -- despite all the people who think their MA training prepares them for it. Or that some superstud has come up with an effective fighting system for when you are on the ground facing multiple opponents. Also, you mention -- although not by name -- Phil Messina...the *knock your head three times on the ground as you kowtow towards New York" combat guru of AWSDA. Everyone I have ever talked to in said organization references his gang sting days (where he would act as bait to be attacked by criminals) faster than a fundamentalist references the Bible. Say hallelujah brother Phil has spoken the gospel! Your reference alludes to his great knowledge of how to handle being attacked by multiple armed bad guys...lemme ask you a question; How often did he do it WITHOUT back up? It was a sting. That means there are cops hiding around the corner and in vans. You go in, get attacked, knowing the rest of your team is charging in the second you get attacked! That's like bullridin there boy, you just gotta hang on for eight seconds. Wanna try the same thing without the cavalry charging in? I don't. Call me a coward, call me a wuss...I'll pass. Or did he knock 'em out all by himself and cuff them while they were unconscious? Gee, I was never that good. Everytime I hit the deck with multiple opponents around, I got the hell out of there... often by crabbing under a table. I DIDN'T try to stay there and fight. I've seen too many stompings to buy that there is some kind of effective fighting strategy that you can pay to learn that will keep allow you to kick ass and take names in those circumstances. But I guarantee you that there is going to be someone who claims that there is one...and gosh, he'll be willing to sell it to you. On top of this, I have heard some really stupid statements laid at Messina's door about how to "fight" multiple opponents (Things like: when facing a group, go after the weakest one). Statements that the people saying them swear he said. I've tried contacting him and asking if A) these were taken out of context (e.g. as a sting operator, that would be the fastest way to provoke an attack, but I wouldn't recommend it for civilians), B) the people were trying to pontificate in the "spirit of Messina" and revealing their own ignorance C) there is more to this strategy (like lunge at the weakest and then unexpectedly turn and take out the most dangerous) or D) if he really believes this shit. Thing is, he never answered me. Now, granted I am not Jackie Chan, but then again, I ain't exactly unknown either. When someone with just "a little bit of a name in the biz" contacts you, politely inquires and asks for a clarification on a point being attributed to you...well, except for him, I've always gotten responses. Silence makes me go "hmmmmmm" So here I sit, a little old pudgy guy with grey in his beard and reading glasses on his nose, who obviously doesn't know a thing about violence because I now live in a small town...but I just gotta wonder, based on the following... >if there are several of them and you haven't > learned >> how to deal with that. But I have been lucky enough to have met people >> who >> can and who can teach others to do the same How you think said training would work? Especially after watching http://www.thenolangate.com/prisonmurder.asx. BTW, just so you know why I am a little cranky about this fantasy bullshit. I had a friend killed last week in the Chicago area. The guy was a phenomenal martial artist, knew an incredibly effective system, was a hell of a fighter, in top physical condition, the size of a bull moose, as competent on his feet as on the ground and just one tough assed piece of real-estate. All the things that the MA/reality based self-defense/grappling/ MMA/ combatives worlds hold up as the holy relics of "winning"...but he died. He landed in the middle of multiple opponents with weapons and instead of moving away he moved towards. Another friend carried his coffin Thursday and we spent two hours on the phone with him helping him handle the grief over our friend dying. These are the kinds of things that happen in my world, the one that all this training supposedly prepares you for... but somehow doesn't reach. So go ahead and tell me all about this training...I'm sure I'll be impressed. M --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:02:46 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Krav changes Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Todd said > In a recent post Marc alluded to a JKD/KM guy who had good training but > was > a ring fighter. This seems a little strange. I know that Krav Maga has > gone > through some commercialization lately. It's still definitely not a sport > system. What I've seen has been solid military combatives along the lines > of > "hit him, throw him to the ground, stomp a mudhole in him". > Maybe the particular student has spent more time in a JKD school that > stresses MMA competition. Many teachers have jumped on that bandwagon. Lemme see, it must have been about twenty years ago that I worked with a guy from Israel. He'd been in one of the elite units and crossing hands with him was fun. He had all kinds of neat nasty nasties. He didn't call it Krav that I remember, but it was the CQC training he'd gotten in the military. The mudhole stomping part was pretty unnecessary, you were broken when you hit the deck, the stepping on you was just icing on the cake. Since that time I've worked out with a few Krav players from different schools around the country, quite frankly the stuff they do -- and what I have seen on the one video tape I've seen -- is nothing like what my co-worker did back in the Teradactyl days. Almost to a man, they charge in knock the snot out of you and then dance out again. A lot of the stuff that would make those same hits bone shattering, spleen rupturing, skull fracturing events aren't there any more. The Krav instructors I know all admit that there are now two branches: Civilian and military training. Maybe you've seen the military, but it definately ain't what is being taught commerically out there. M --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "All Blade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: re: [Eskrima] Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:24:59 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Okay...first off, remember I train cops. As retired CHP Guro Blade wishes he had a quarter for every time he heard that one. Guro Blade Always cuts deep _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest