Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:54:39 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #100 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training (1@msfencing.org) 2. Cop stuff (Marc MacYoung) 3. Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training (Marc MacYoung) 4. Animal's crankiness (Marc MacYoung) 5. Re: Who was he (Marc MacYoung) 6. Names? (lunghsing@aol.com) 7. Back to FMA (Ray) 8. RE: Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:46:09 -0600 Organization: 1@msfencing.org Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Who here hasn't seen a "sloppy" street fighter kick butt? It > doesn't matter if it looks good, it just matters if he wins. > I've seen guys fight that have clearly never had a lesson > that I would be stupid not to approach with caution. I was totally amazed as I watched two specific no-holds barred fights the other night on the Gracie Brothers "Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action" DVD. There was this untrained "brawler" who was pitted against a boxing/karate champion. The brawler was 220 pounds of muscle. He was big and strong, but he acted quite crazy, jumping around, making weird faces, and generally acting like a clown. He was totally unconventional. He didn't even bring his hands up on guard. He was wild and slapped and flailed and kicked. All of his punches were wild swings which after missing their targets continued arcing around to the other side of his body. Every time he did this the poor guy looked like he was going to throw his own shoulders right out of their sockets. I wondered if he was more sore the next day from his own poor form than from his opponent's hits. His opponent had good boxing form and managed to duck and slip all of the brawlers wild swings. However, the brawler managed to rush in on him several times and throw him to the ground, choking him and pounding him and then strangely enough letting him get back up. Finally the brawler got a head lock on the boxer and choked him out. As it turns out the Brawler had already had 180 fights and had only lost one of them (to Rickson Gracie). So evidently this wild, untrained man was very dangerous and very hard to beat in spite of his lack of "fighting technique." This goes against everything I was taught as a boxer and was a very scary eye opener to watch. In the second fight he fought a different fighter, this time it was Rickson, who had beaten him three years earlier. Rickson went on to beat him again (with a choke). Rez --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:00:34 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Cop stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve Holley said >I've taught my recruits that, when things head south, you have probably >made a mistake somewhere along the way - taken a bad position, failed to >notice warning >signs, escalated when you should have de-escalated, failed >to control suspect movement, etc.. . That being said, there are times that >things blow up and no matter >how much post-mortem debriefing you put >yourself through, you just can't figure out where you took the wrong turn >to crapville. But most of the time, the situation >should have been >controlled long before it got physical ( or, as Barney Fife used to say >"Nip it, Andy, nip it in the bud! ). I teach that 90% of all situations CAN be talked down...but there is that 10% that is just going to go sideways no matter what you do. Having said that however, there is a big difference between can be and will be. Although I have read a statistic that 97% of all the incidents that LEOs find themselves in will be resolved without violence, since I teach a wide variety of professions I drop the number to form an average between professions, ergo the 90%. I have a guy who works on forensic max who if you want to know what a bad day at work you oughta talk to him...because of hiring freezes, understaffing, state politics (department of corrections is trying to take them over so you have turf wars) and the agencies refusal to prosecute, they're getting assaulted almost daily. Restating: 90% CAN be talked down, doesn't mean that 90% WILL be talked down. There are some people who can just piss off the Good Humor Man. I used to work with a guy named Harvey, who was almost magical in his abilty to spot who we were going to have trouble with down the line. His only other gift was however, to guarantee that a situation went physical 100% of the time. I swear I have never met anybody who has such a gift for making things go sideways. The degree of success really comes down as to how much time and effort someone puts into learning how to keep things from going sideways I mentioned in a previous post that when I was an ASSsshollllle. (not just the market variety of jerk that I am now, but one of those who gets a certain pronunciation/grow of the word by cops) about 90% of the cops I dealt with I could have dropped without difficulty. However, there were those 10% that you just KNEW not to fuss with. They always had their shit wired tight and you knew, not only would y ou not get away with it, but that no matter how bad you were, they had ways to make you REAL uncomfortable -- and they could do that without breaking into a sweat. Those were the guys you didn't want to tangle with. The guys who were fair game to go off on were those who didn't have that "whatever." Funny thing about it is, these were also the guys who were the MOST polite, reasonable, authoritive and effective. Yet, they got the job done. The new program I am working on is basically bottling that talent. It is explaining what those officers had that the other's didn't, how to communicate it. Both to the criminal and later in court -- for the ones that do go off. Add to that controlling when and where the really stupid ones attack. "See this opening to attack me through? It's a trap...but you don't know that yet" What can I say...I subscibe to the philosophy out of El Diablo "I ain't as fast as I used to be (displaying multiple concealed weapons) but I cheat real good..." It ain't that hard to handle an attack when you know when and where it is coming because you intentionally left the hole open and stepped into range. >I have noticed a disturbing trend among young cops just out of the academy >in the last 5-10 years. They seem to be more worried about being sued or >getting an >IA than in going home in one piece. Boy do we need to sit down and drink a beer and bitch about this. The problem with that is the perps know it too. They're far more likely to move against officers than ever before. >Frequently, the first good ass whuppin' cures this tendency but not always. >I went through the academy in 1978 ( where we wrote on papyrus by the light >of >candles ) and did not have this conditioning. Problem is, not only do the recruits have this attitude, but something Mas Ayoob told me over coffee. "Excessive use of force arises out of repeated attempts to apply ineffective control techinques. They're scare of getting sued while at the same time not having "faith" in their defensive tactics. >I try to get recruits to understand that if something looks or feels wrong >then it probably is and to act on that feeling. Ever read about the original report that coined the term "situational awareness" for the Air Force (i.e. why some pilots became "aces" and others just didn't survive?) >I reccomend that they read Gavin deBeckers >book " The Gift of Fear' ( >yeah, he's a little preachy but the information's good ). Another fella that is good to know is Lt. Col Dave Grossman and his Bullet Proof Mind series. He and I have had long conversations about the source of "freezing" in combat. His expansion on the fight/flight response is, in my estimation, brilliant...and long over due. David Grossman "On Killing" www.killology.com M www.nononsenseselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:03:46 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I said >> Well I'll be buggered by a bear... > > Ummm... interesting. Mayhaps you've been in CO for too long. :) Well I will admit to having gotten that line from "Welcome to Mooseport" Although it blends nicely with the joke that ends with the bear saying... "Bob, this isn't really about hunting is it?" ME --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:07:15 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Animal's crankiness Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Bobbe Edmonds says > Marc, as for you, you might want to clarify what you are referring to as > "fantasy bullshit". I have said this before, no matter what your take on > MA/FMA/MMA/Windows XP is, somebody out there thinks you are strictly > amateur hour. You bring up good points, but your "crankiness" comes across > as "I know more'n you 'cause I been down that hellish road". Yeah, I been > down it too, and it's not all bullshit. And my opinion is no less valid > than yours. *sigh* You're right about my crankiness it does occassionally get the best of me. For that I apologize. I'm not trying to promote myself as either an uber-bad ass, a know-it-all or an ultimate street fighter. What I will say is that in my past I had to do some very horrible things in order to survive. I didn't do them because you could cut me off at the knees and call me a tripod...nor did I do them because I knew the ultimate and deadly fighting art that I am busy trying to sell to everyone. I did them because A) I had to do so to survive and B) at the time I was about a half bubble off plumb and rabid with pain, anger and selfishness Often B put me into the situations requiring A. I carry the emotional scars and baggage for both doing what I did to survive and over the deaths of friends who either didn't have what it took or found themselves in unwinnable situations. Both survival and death takes a grievous toll on one's soul. Both are stains that never wash away. Furthermore for a long time and under a wide variety of circumstances I had to tell very nasty people "NO"...not something that they like to hear. In fact, they quite often become very upset when you say that to them and take it personally. And when they take it personally, things get exciting. Quite frankly, my life was endangered more often when I did this than when I was a freewheeling asshole, because I couldn't run. I had to go forward. It was during that time that I learned -- beyond a shadow of a doubt -- that the idea of the "lone warrior facing incredible odds" is fantasy. You survive because of teamwork, back-up, equipment and training...not because you can knock bullets out of the air with your dick. And yet, this individual prowess is a mythology I regularly see promoted in many martial art circles, forums and schools. I mean, in fact, let's think about the use of the term "martial arts." Martial meaning related to military/war. And yet the very nature of military is cooperative team effort. Not individual achievement or glory. Yeah, there are individuals who rise above, but the training itself is not oriented on the lone kick ass ronin. War is not won by the individual and the training reflects that. This isn't any posing about warrior arts, that's a reality of military training. Over the last three years I've sent a lot of guys over to Afghanistan and Iraq. And thank gawd until now everyone of them has come back... but when I'm sending them out the door, I tell them to remember not the deadly kung fu commando stuff I have taught them, but that team work will save their butts. Thing is, even when I was on the streets, it was your crew that really saved you...not your individual fighting prowess. Nobody made it alone out there. Yeah, you had pointmen, but when it got deep it was your crew that covered your back and bailed you out -- especially when the shit got too deep. When you found yourself in a one-on-one, no weapons, fight it was almost a relief. Other than that, it was pretty damned terrifying and an extremely high risk of serious injury or death...not a situation where being cool and calm was the norm. In fact, screaming like a girl, wetting your pants and throwing up afterwards were far more common. Add to this that many of my friends who died did so trying to fight multiple, armed opponents...a situation that is becoming common in advertising for deadly fighting systems. According to proponents of the systems, not only can you survive and escape these situation, but they're going to teach you how to stay there and win. For most people, that isn't just a false hope, but a dangerous misconception. Now if that ain't bad enough, you can now do it from the ground too.... For a guy who didn't have ethics or morals when he was younger, I've kind of packed on a lot. Some of the most strong red lines (i.e. do not cross) I have are in regard to teaching...especially when it comes to teaching people who are stepping out into the line of fire. My first law of teaching is this "Do NOT teach anything that will get your students killed." A subclause of that rule is "or get them raped in prison." Quite frankly, when I see other instructors violate this rule is when I get the most cranky. We're talking lives here, not just the student's lives, but those whom they might murder if they have been encouraged to believe that their martial art system is synonymous with self-defense...or worse yet, is a fighting system. While I consider this to be a gross violation by the instructors, without blowing their brains into a fine pink mist, you are not going to convince these people that they are promoting dangerous misconceptions. Face it, they have a lot of time and ego invested in selling this ultimate fighting system that -- when you pay them -- will allow you to defeat slavering hordes of street thugs. By extension however, there tends to be unrealistic attitudes from the students about how one's training in a system will be enough to carry you "comes the day" This is simply not true on countless different levels. I don't know how much time list members spend on other forums or lists, but the eskrima list is one of the higher standard lists on the internet. I can't tell you how many times elsewhere I have encountered people bragging about knowing "never been known to fail" techniques, "complete systems," their just sheer contempt for any "fighting system" not theirs and blatantly ignoring of the realities, complications and repercussions of violence. When it comes to how to use this training for "self-defense" there is a strong tendency to overly focus on the "Omega solution" and ignore how much control you had over the situation before you ended up trying to deploy this deadly system you have paid so much to learn. There is also a tendency to ignore the reality that if it is bad enough where you are justified to use it, if it fails, you are the one who will be dying that day. Then when I watch what they are doing I get sick to my stomach because so often what they are doing will only work -- in situations where it isn't justified, which will put them in prison. Or it will fail against a dedicated attack. In which c case they are dead. Shit, it's like watching someone hand a five year old a loaded gun and telling them to go play on the freeway. You know, no good can come of this. Even though I consider this is akin to certain lemmings bragging about how they know how to back stroke, in comparison to some of my contemporaries I am really calm and rational in as much as I try to explain why things are just a little more complicated than knowing a system or being cross trained in various fighting arts. Yeah, it makes me bombastic and boring a LOT of the time, but I am not giving into saying "pull your head out of your ass pal, this is the real world." Still, occasionally I slip and get cranky. However, I would like to point something else out, while I acknowledged above that this list is one of the better ones on the internet. I have been hammered on this list before for pointing out that MA is not the same thing as SD. (As I say on my Web page, I love the MA, they literally saved my life, but they are not the same thing as self-defense in a modern, western society. Nor is self-defense the same as fighting). I've also caught hell on numerous occasions for saying that there are commonly overlooked issues that need to be included in any curriculum that claims to be self-defense oriented -- usually from people who interpreted that to mean that I was saying I knew it all and my system is the best. We all know how popular I am for saying something is dangerous to self or students (point in case). And of course there are certain people both past and present who despise the ground I walk on (my it's nice to be admired). My point it, it is true, quite often I am preaching to the choir here. Among people who have years of experience often what I am saying doesn't need to be said. But that's the rub folks, just because you know it doesn't mean everyone does -- even on this list. I mean think about it folks, how many times have you seen someone teaching or saying something in a school, forum or even on this list that you know is in error and NOT said something? Never mind changing that person's mind -- that ain't gonna happen -- but the service you perform by saying something is for all the people who DON'T know any better. For all the people who have no idea that what the person is saying is flawed, incorrect or incomplete or flat out dangerous and irresponsible. If you know SAY IT...because it is the people who are lurking who will benefit from it the most...not the guy who spits everytime your name is mentioned. M --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:52:14 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Who was he Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > So to you Marc, my condolences, I > am sorry for your loss. > John Thank you John. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:21:16 -0500 From: lunghsing@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Names? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I FIRed a guy one time whose name was "Richard Handler". His parents just weren't thinking. I can only imagine what his High School days were like. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:43:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Back to FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I'm not trying to promote myself as either an uber-bad ass, a know-it-all > or an ultimate street fighter. What I will say is that in my past I had to > do some very horrible things in order to survive. I didn't do them because > you could cut me off at the knees and call me a tripod...nor did I do them > because I knew the ultimate and deadly fighting art that I am busy trying to > sell to everyone. I did them because A) I had to do so to survive and B) at > the time I was about a half bubble off plumb and rabid with pain, anger and > selfishness Often B put me into the situations requiring A. I carry the > emotional scars and baggage for both doing what I did to survive and over > the deaths of friends who either didn't have what it took or found > themselves in unwinnable situations. Both survival and death takes a > grievous toll on one's soul. Both are stains that never wash away. {snip] You and most of the rest of us... Now back to FMA. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:31:04 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Ground vs. cop vs. MMA vs. training To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I know that fight well. The "brawler" was using psychological warfare in a big way with all of his animalistic antics. And yeah...his double windmill style of punching must have torn both of his rotator cuffs. Pretty scary dude...especially back in those days when upright fighting was more common. -Steve Kohn 1@msfencing.org wrote: > Who here hasn't seen a "sloppy" street fighter kick butt? It > doesn't matter if it looks good, it just matters if he wins. > I've seen guys fight that have clearly never had a lesson > that I would be stupid not to approach with caution. I was totally amazed as I watched two specific no-holds barred fights the other night on the Gracie Brothers "Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action" DVD. There was this untrained "brawler" who was pitted against a boxing/karate champion. The brawler was 220 pounds of muscle. He was big and strong, but he acted quite crazy, jumping around, making weird faces, and generally acting like a clown. He was totally unconventional. He didn't even bring his hands up on guard. He was wild and slapped and flailed and kicked. All of his punches were wild swings which after missing their targets continued arcing around to the other side of his body. Every time he did this the poor guy looked like he was going to throw his own shoulders right out of their sockets. I wondered if he was more sore the next day from his own poor form than from his opponent's hits. His opponent had good boxing form and managed to duck and slip all of the brawlers wild swings. However, the brawler managed to rush in on him several times and throw him to the ground, choking him and pounding him and then strangely enough letting him get back up. Finally the brawler got a head lock on the boxer and choked him out. As it turns out the Brawler had already had 180 fights and had only lost one of them (to Rickson Gracie). So evidently this wild, untrained man was very dangerous and very hard to beat in spite of his lack of "fighting technique." This goes against everything I was taught as a boxer and was a very scary eye opener to watch. In the second fight he fought a different fighter, this time it was Rickson, who had beaten him three years earlier. Rickson went on to beat him again (with a choke). Rez _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest