Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:58:21 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #110 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2100 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Carry Adaptations (Pngreiff@aol.com) 2. A place to buy Knves sticks, swords etc. (mainlma@aol.com) 3. Carry knives (Gerry Chenevert) 4. Re: Carrying knives (steven ledwith) 5. The Gunting (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 6. Re: The Gunting (Ray) 7. Fighting knives (Marc MacYoung) 8. Re: Balisongs (Kes41355@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Pngreiff@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:14:58 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Carry Adaptations Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Buzz, Interesting comments and quite poignant. Hopfully my remarks here are lucid after a long day at work having my brain vaccumed dry of intelligent thoughts. I have been a gun person for over thirty years, done various martial arts about as long and to use the words of two of my instructors Dave Wink and Jim Tirey, "I believe there is a synergy here" Their instruction to me in the FMA/IMA & Daito Ryu schools has greatly improved my understanding of edged weapons dynamics, what works for real, what does not, during actual full contact combat, and why as a gun handler I do not want an aggressor to have the opportunity to close in........ The entire recent gun thread is to me really about evolutionary personal defensive skills, or adaptation to rapid enviromental changes. Responsible firearms use and skills are just an extension of the FMA/IMA concepts hopefully increasing the range/safety zone, or situational outcome against aggressors. in short - winning decisively Guess the "SAME WAY Every Day Carry" folks would really get concerned when I put my G-27 into a heavy winter jacket pocket with my hand around it, instead of the usual under the jacket FBI carry huh?? Or stuff a single action .45Colt, or D-A .45Colt cross draw at just above belt level and have it ready inches from, or in my hand underneath a jacket while using the local ATMs late at nite. I hear the same kind of idiots tritely tell me they won't shoot to the best of their ability during firearms qualifications, because they are "afraid" of what "may happen" in court if they shoot perfect scores. None has been able to logically substantiate their arguements with written proof /substance, or explain what happens with their misses in the real world off the shooting range. Co-incidentally their baton skills and CQC skills also leave a lot to be desired.............. I remember triaging a respiratory arrest in the middle of a local street last year and wondering why everyone was nicely backed away 20' or so and not up close rubber necking the poor bastard lying there dying like normally happens. Might have had something to do with the Glock and ASP baton sticking out the back of my belt line under a tank top, which I completely had forgotten about in the heat of the moment....... Both were secure, but in the wrong place based on my body for being down in a low kneeling position alongside him holding his head back and ventilating'em. I also remembered this and modified my summer gun carry position accordingly the next day. This also applies with edged defensive implements, a little blade in your hand is a hell of a suprise to someone eyeballing the other one clipped in your pocket...... I started carrying two EDC's about three years ago for just that reason. Currently its a $10 version of the folding utility razor knifes (a real sleeper) from Lowes, and one of 7 Emersons selected du'Jour. The old games of "moving and drawing" and "tag you're it" will quickly show if your techniques are really up to snuff. Two aggressors on one defender is a good reality check here too. Like you alluded to, its about survival - NOT website posing, cut n'pasting some "experts" questionable opinions, or postulating the coulda-shoulda-wouldas we have all heard before. Be safe friends! Pete Reiff --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:20:28 -0500 From: mainlma@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] A place to buy Knves sticks, swords etc. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have been in Cebu for almost a week and no one seems to know where I can get sticks, knives or swords. It would be a shame to leave here and not briong anything home. I did find a coulble balisong, but they were of very poor quality, nothing that I would like to have. Does any one know of a place where I can find some toys? Thanks --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gerry Chenevert" To: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:16:37 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Carry knives Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the replies to my balisong post. While I love my balisong and I train with it, I spend more time with a fixed blade. Here in MA it makes more sense as even posessing a balisong is technically illegal. You can buy one at almost any army/navy store, but that's another matter... and I'll have an easier time explaining to police why I'm carrying a 9"fixed blade vs a balisong w/4"blade. How do people feel about a balisong for close quarter deployment? I like to try and drill for when the guy next to you goes crazy and he's on you fast. It makes it a lot harder for me to utilize a balisong here; I'm glad I haven't cut my fingers off with some of the results! It makes me want to carry the CRKT Hissatsu, a wicked knife! That deploys fast...and it's always ready. Gerry --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:03:30 -0800 (PST) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Carrying knives To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Where I live in the States, Georgia to be specific one only has to have a valid hunting or fishing license to openly carry a pistol and nothing is required to carry a knife. When asked by a cop why I am carrying whatever I am carrying my usual response is because I can. In the US offering any explanation for what you are legally doing could be twisted around and used against you in court. When in doubt say these words "I have nothing to say.". The burden of proof is on them. --- Michael Koblic wrote: > "> One instructor put it this way: "Can I borrow > your gun? I need to > > hammer a nail." When he got the expected > response, he added, "Then > > why do you use your defense blade for opening > boxes?" > > IMHO if you carry a knife you want to use it as > often as possible. You also > want to be seen using it as often as possible: > opening letters, packages, > sharpening golf tees, cutting up pizza and many, > many more. > > Then, when asked, it is a tool, officer, not a > weapon... > > Michael Koblic, > Campbell River, B. C. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2100 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:26:38 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Gunting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > the Gunting folder is of course designed so you have this option. It > can be opened as a result of the gunting, or not as you so choose. > Having had the trainer used on me the 'gunt' itself is vicious. lol > So If you have a non-lethal choice and choose a lethal one, how much time in that split second do you get to consult a criminal attorney or Doctor of Law?? I mean, "Officer, this guy grabbed my wife's butt and technically that is assault. So I magically targeted a few nerve centers with this knife that I carry in my pocket using it closed with metal spikes extending for impact weapons. I thought my life was threatened. This guy was big and strong and bald, and covered with bulldog tattoos. He threw me down into a headlock. I remain composed, open my Gunteen, use a modular training system, and biomechanically cut him. All this instead of dialing 911 with my self phone to report an incident of assault and in the meantime look for witnesses and get a good ID of the suspect." "The officer informed me that I was actually the attacker, my blade was over legal length, and I had chosen a lethal means of attack vs a simple assault instead of calling a LEO. Now I am in prison with a bigger, balder, stronger, more tattooed, better at jiujitsu butt grabber. He is however, not grabbing my wife's butt, ..he is well, ....you know. My wife's visitation day is today, but she is missing it, since Raul, the pool boy, is doing physical therapy on my wife's low back." Moral,.. be careful carrying around KillerKommandoKnives. You may end up in a small cell and unhappy. Tom Furman --Those years on the Animal List beat some sense into me about knives, "knife fighting, the law, and other things. Thanks Marc. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Gunting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:32:44 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Moral,.. be careful carrying around KillerKommandoKnives. You may end up in a > small cell and unhappy. A point that Mas Ayoob was making 20+ years @ LFI. If you carry a knife don't carry one specially designed for killing or combat, especially one with an interesting name like Combat Elite or Ole Blood -n- Guts or ... I cannot recommend his LFI-I or the Judicious Use of Deadly Force classes enough. fyi... Judicious Use of Deadly Force Tuition - $350.00 April 16 - 17, 2005 ~ Bloomington, IL October 22 - 23, 2005 ~ Oconomowoc, WI November 5 - 6, 2005 ~ Detroit, MI November 12 - 13, 2005 ~ Denver, CO Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:23:52 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Fighting knives Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One addendum: I tend to carry a folding utility knife (www.superknife.com). I try to save my defense blade for defense use. One instructor put it this way: "Can I borrow your gun? I need to hammer a nail." When he got the expected response, he added, "Then why do you use your defense blade for opening boxes?" Woody ******************** Ummmm.... to begin with I have been cussed out by knife sharpeners on three contienents for what I do to blades. To me a knife is a tool...and I use and abuse them as such. Since I am famous for rolling the edges when I try to sharpen I take them to people who don't and have them put an edge back on them. When they say "what were you doing? Chopping ice?" my response is "Yeah, so?" I had a job to do and I did it with the tools at hand. That's why I'm there to have it sharpened. Bottomline, how sharp or how dull your blade is is pretty much up to you and how well you maintain it. Now having said that, let's look at the idea of a "fighting knife" or as it was so delicately phrased by that instructor "defensive blade." The problem that I have with this trend towards so-called fighting, tactical or defensive blades is that it is primarily marketing. It ain't about effectiveness, it's about cash. I've stabbed people with Gerbers, broken bottles and cheap 25 cent fishing knives from Thrifty-mart... they all worked the same. The pointy end goes into the other guy and it really didn't matter how much you paid for it. And as for "fighting daggers" well a whole lot of what I have seen out on the market fails the fundamental test I know for these kinds of blades. "Can it reach the heart from any of the normal entry directions?" This is over and above the problems that many of the combat daggers had, Fairbairn/Sikes tended to break off at the tip, or the Gerber Mark V that snapped off at the hilt as my friend was trying to take out a sentry in Vietnam. Add to that the old "no place to put your thumb" problem between daggers and knives and you come back to "ye olde k-bar" and bayonets as solid compromises between size, utility and durability. Big enough to get the job done, tough enough to pry open a dented ammo can. Now am I saying that you should not invest in a quality tool? Hell no. A good knife is like the difference between having a set of Snap On tools vs. wrenches that you bought in the Wal-mart discount bin. A good tool is a good tool. However, the idea of shelling that much cash for a supposed tactical folder just makes me shudder. First off, when it comes down to it a knife isn't the best weapon in the world. It is 99% of the time the tool that you have handy when you need. "Sorry man, I just didn't have time to go get my laser guided missile, I had to use what I had." If you are going to carry a "weapon" (i.e. something that has no other purpose) then why settle for such a short range and limited item? Now, here's the real bugaboo. When I ask this question people usually respond well in case I need it for close up. Dude, if he's that damned close and you're in a situation where you are legally justified in using your knife then you ain't got time to get it out. If you got time to get your knife out, then you got time to get your gun out...so why settle for carrying an inferior ranged weapon? If you are going to go to the trouble of carrying a weapon....something that has NO other purpose than to put holes into another human being...then why carry an inferior one? I always like the old Marine Sgt who summed it best "We used a knife as a measuring tool. You pulled it out and if the guy was in range to use it, he was too damned close." Now if on the other hand I happen to have a tool that in an emergency situation can also be used as a defensive manner...well, that's another issue. Secondly, and I really wonder how many people who buy these expensive "fighting knives" think about this, what are you doing with a fighting blade in the first place? There is this thing called "mens rea" in the courts. It means "a guilty mind" Now if the cops catch you wandering around with two blades, one obviously a tool, but the other one named "Guro Big Dick's Street Scum Killer Combat Folder" they ain't gonna like it. Kinda like finding someone carrying a gun without a concealed carry permit... And using it on someone... oh man. The prosecution is going to have a field day. They're gonna argue that you weren't a human bullet with someone's name, you were addressed "To whom it may concern." If you weren't looking to stab someone...anyone...why were you carrying such a blade? BTW, the same thing can be said about excessive training , remember the bouncer killed in NY over the smoking ban? Your gonna have a hard time explaining it. Thing is the marketing that goes on about tactical folders, fighters yada, yada yada is something you really need to think about, because it is a large part salesmanship to get your money. And the more macho and elite it seems, the more people are willing to plunk their cash down. Personally for defensive application I don't particularly like karambuts. Yeah I can use them, but in order to get the range right I have to violate another standard which I hold dear: That of "get out of there ASAP." It's a nasty and mean weapon if YOU are the one doing the closing and controlling range -- which translates into you being aggressive. Sure it can be used if someone is charging you, but after the initial dodge, you pretty much have to close and re-engage to use it. Which is just a little to close for me to feel comfortable about being when someone is trying to kill me. Having said that I love the utility design of the blade. It is an absolute fantastic tool. My Civilian is wonderful for opening boxes because I can use my thumb and knuckles to control the depth of the cut. And do so far more accurately than I can with a normal blade. And the hooked blade is fabulous for cutting seatbelts in a manner that is away from both the person in the seat and the person doing the cutting. I've used it on countless other occassions, where I needed to make a controlled cut in limited space. It's a GREAT tool...which is why they are carried in so many places. (oh BTW, the Civilian was a gift) But, think about all the advertisements you see for training on how to fight with a karambut. What a big legend has grown up around that kind of blade. Hell, Spyderco started the elitism with their marketing for the Civilian and selective sales. And now many instructors continue to promote this fantasy with information that enforces the mythical overtones while taking you further and further out from reality -- like that a knife is primarily a tool. Here's this wicked looking blade that if you get stopped and you are carrying, you had better be able to explain the tool aspects instead of how deadly of a fighting knife it is. 'Cause face it "This is my utility knife and this Guro Big Dick's Street Scum Killer Combat Folder is...is... my other utility knife...yeah, that's it" is not going to keep you from going downtown with the nice policemen. If you are concerned about the sharpness of your blade, either learn how to maintain your blades or pay for it to be done (like I end up having to do) M --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:38:02 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Balisongs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Rob, Thanks for the kind words, but I owe it to my instructors for teaching me right. I have been around long enough to remember the nunchaku craze of the 1970's, when every 14 year old kid walking down the street had chucks sticking out of their pockets. Well, now it's the butterfly knife. I work in law enforcement, and I can't tell you how many balisongs have been confiscated from juveniles in the years I've been in service. More than I can remember, though. The attraction of the nunchaku was the flash, and that holds true for the balisong today. Trouble is, today the gun is as prevalent on the street, and flashing a balisong as a show of intimidation is a good way for a kid to get shot. I guess we have to take the bad with the good, but this is a trend I wish would not have started. Kim In a message dated 3/24/2005 9:55:36 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Kery well said. Too many FMA'ers can't wait to get it open. Once it's opened you have "crossed the Rubicon". Rob Mulligan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest