Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:28:45 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #130 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: bad examples and/or wing chun (Jared Dame) 2. Re: ED v12.127 - wing chun brawl (Bart Hubbard) 3. Re: bad examples and/or wing chun (Shawn Keren) 4. RE: bad examples and/or wing chun (1@msfencing.org) 5. Seminar with the Legendary Grand Master Cacoy Canete (Alex Ercia) 6. Brent Lewis, Bozetepe-Cheung (Marc Denny) 7. FL No Duty to Retreat Bill (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:44:29 -0600 From: Jared Dame To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] bad examples and/or wing chun Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To see a change you must realize the change in your own life. This is a really bad regurgitation of something Gandhi said. Best Regards, Jared Dame 303-638-6216 On Apr 6, 2005 2:52 AM, iPat wrote: > good point, but the bad examples are already there. Complaints about > blue or purple belts teaching and only get their belts in order to > create the club corporate finance machine > FMA'ers who drill without going anywhere as most of their training is > seminar based. > JKD and the greed of certain people who have now registered every word > possible and even threaten litigation agains members of their own > familly. > We could go on but its a tired argument > > Focus on what is good for you, speak highly of those who represent what is good. > > Attending our BJJ class right now is a Judo 4th dan from Japan. We are > sharing, training and learning. People dont highlight the positives > and sensationalise the negatives.Change starts with every one of us. > > On Apr 6, 2005 3:11 AM, noirpalm wrote: > > Being a relative novice compared to many people here I never post but: > > any very popular style of martial arts often develops alot of bad examples for the general public to point out and ridicule. > > This list includes tae kwon do, Wing Chun, ninjitsu, karate, tai chi, and with enough time will include BJJ and the FMAs'. > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > > > > -- > iPat > live for today, live for tomorrow > "Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any > organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, > nor through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He > has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the > understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and > not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection..." > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- Jared Dame jareddame@gmail.com "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Rene Descartes --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:19:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bart Hubbard To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: ED v12.127 - wing chun brawl Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just about every fight I hear about that involves "technical" arts (Wing Chun, Capoeira, etc) ends up turning into a ground-and-pound, or simple fistfight. I'm sure that says something, but I'm not sure what. Woody The thing about Wing Chun is that it is supposed to work in a fistfight. When you use it in a fist fight it doesn't look like a Wing Chun workout, it looks like a fight. So that makes perfect sense to me. When people expect a fight to look and feel like their normal workout, then comes the problem regardless of whatever "technical" art they do. A lot of Wing Chun people are stuck in the first form and in rolling arms. It's the same with a lot of people in FMA who get stuck in abesedario or sumbrada. They mistake the drill for the art and they mistake the art for fighting. No matter what art or style you train, if you fail to internalize the methods then you won't be able to use what you've learned in a high stess fast paced situation. The only way to work through that is through light and full contact random combative practice, aka sparring. Both Capoeira and Wing Chun in general tend not to do too much of that. ===== Be Cool. Bart Hubbard Capital Doce Pares www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Shawn Keren" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] bad examples and/or wing chun Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:46:50 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It doesn't only happen with kids or 1st degrees! I recently trained for a few hours with a group of black belts, from a variety of other systems. The person that was running the session was getting ready to show some stick/weapons techniques at the request of a young lady who was a TKD BB and was curious about Kali, but had never trained in the art. As the leader started the training it became obvious that his training was much different than mine, so I thought that maybe I'd get some new "stuff". After about 5 minutes one of the other BBs asked what system this was from, the answer - "Well I've never formally trained in any Arnis system, my original instructor used to just pick a weapon and tell us to figure out what we could on our own." Fortunately after a short period of time watching him "twirl" I was able to get him to let me show some basic disarms, blocks, strikes and even a few patterns from Doce Pares. Further, after our training session he asked me if I would come and teach a 2 hour class at his school. (he wanted me to show his students some Wun Hop Kuen Do) I accepted and went ahead. About a week later I attended one of his classes to see what he taught his regular students (as our arts are related) I was frankly surprised at what I saw. His main art had become so watered down that it was almost unrecognizable, not to mention almost ineffective. I have trained with a number of people from that same system so it's not like I was seeing it for the first time. Nearly half of his 45 minute class was calisthenics and stances, and the rest was spent on some drills of techniques that were awkward and had no basis in body mechanics or realism. Another instance- I sometimes check out other schools/clubs to see what they are doing - teaching and if it is something that I might want to learn and add to my knowledge. About 18 months ago I decided to check out a new Krav Maga school that is about 5 miles from my home. I called and talked to the instructor, who asked me to come in and speack with him face to face. Krav is something that I have been interested in learning as it is supposed to be an effective street system. When I went in and spoke with the instructor he told me that he was a 3rd or 4th degree in Krav and a 6th degree in Shotokan. He then explained the financial part of my possible commitment and the price was pretty reasonable. I was told that there was a class that evening and if I wanted to I could come and participate if I wanted to. Of course I went because I was seriously considering joining. Frankly I was dissapointed with the class. It started out OK and I realize that there were some people that were pretty new to MA's and that it is necessary to do the kicking and punching drills so that didn't bother me, but what did bother me was that most of what he did seemed to be geared mor to Shotokan than Krav. The technique drills were more like one step drills and what I saw just didn't impress me in the least. The other thing that bothered me was the lack of any contact what so ever. I spent some time doing drills with one of his brown belt students who had been training for 4-5 years and was getting ready to test for black within the next 6 months. Since I was a guest at this school I was careful to keep contact at about half of what I'd do where I've trained or even with my own students, so I wasn't hitting this guy with much. Anyway after the first time I touched this guy he asked me to "watch your control, that's way too much contact". If you're not going to get a little contact what are you there for and how do you expect to get a black belt, that was what went through my head but didn't come out of my mouth. I've seen some Krav classes before (not where I'd be able to attend) and this wasn't what I was looking for, nor did it even look like Krav. The bad examples are everywhere, unfortunately not everyone is able to tell if what they are getting is a true representation of the art that they are supposedly learning. Then some of those students go off and teach, and dilute it a little more and so it goes...... Regards, Shawn Keren ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:30 AM Subject: RE: [Eskrima] bad examples and/or wing chun > Actually what pi$$es me of is people pretending to know a certain martial art, > "teaching" it and actually degrading it in the eyes of its students or people > who don't know any better. Classic example, my 8 year old nephew is taking > karate classes in a school that supposedly also teaches them other > arts/weapons. He's already a "black-belt" (grrr, but that's another story) > and his parents told me he also learned arnis. So I go to him and said "Hey I > heard you were learning some arnis from your school" and he said "I'm way past > arnis". His father then said he learned one arnis kata and that for them was > what arnis was all about! Talk about trivializing the art !!! I would hope > that these teachers would at least tell their students that what they are > teaching is just an "drop in the ocean" to get their feet wet in the different > martial arts, but I guess that's expecting too much... > > Myron --__--__-- Message: 4 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] bad examples and/or wing chun Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:41:55 -0500 Organization: 1@msfencing.org Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Wieneke, Myron [mailto:myron.wieneke@csfb.com] > Actually what pi$$es me of is people pretending to know a > certain martial art, "teaching" it and actually degrading it > in the eyes of its students or people who don't know any > better. > Classic example, my 8 year old nephew is taking > karate classes in a school that supposedly also teaches them > other arts/weapons. He's already a "black-belt" (grrr, but > that's another story) and his parents told me he also learned > arnis. So I go to him and said "Hey I heard you were > learning some arnis from your school" and he said "I'm way > past arnis". His father then said he learned one arnis kata > and that for them was what arnis was all about! Talk about > trivializing the art !!! I would hope that these teachers > would at least tell their students that what they are > teaching is just an "drop in the ocean" to get their feet wet > in the different martial arts, but I guess that's expecting I agree that it is a bad thing to degrade a martial art. I don't know if this is the case with the curriculum offered to kids at your nephew's karate school, but some martial art schools offer a specialized curriculum to kids. One in which the kid's ranks do not equate with the same rank adults obtain. For instance a kid's black belt might be the equivalent of an adult blue belt or similar. Also many of them offer a program which is a kind of "survey of martial arts" designed not to take the kids from basics through advanced levels of any specific art, but rather to give the kids a brief overview of several different types of martial arts in the hopes that one of them might spark a life long interest which the kid would then be motivated to pursue throughout adulthood. Kids have so many different activities vying for their time these days it's a wonder any of them stick with anything anymore. I home school my sons and have made martial arts training a required part of their everyday curriculum (as well as music, art, and the "more important" subjects: math, science, reading, writing, spelling, etc.) Blessings, Rez Johnson "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." THE FENCING MASTER by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms (Mississippi Fencing Academy) President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach 1980 - 2002 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://traditionalfencing.org "Eala Earendel engla beorhtast ofer middangeard monnum sended." Crist of Cynewulf --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:42:38 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Seminar with the Legendary Grand Master Cacoy Canete Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi guys! Just wanted to plug Manong Cacoy's seminar. Topics: Eskrido, pangamot and sparring When 4 june 2005 Time: 10am-5pm Where: 901 N 8th St(at East Hedding ST.) San Jose CA 95112 Cost: $50 at the door Hosted by: Professor Ron Lew, Kajukenbo, Fi Kuen Tiger Eye Claw Center San Jose CA No Spectators and no video cameras allowed For further information please call 408-839-8290 or email: ronlew@tigereyeclaw.com See you there! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:16:26 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Brent Lewis, Bozetepe-Cheung Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: A most hearty concurrence on our friend Brent Lewis, who played djembe drum at our Gatherings for many years and whose CDs we sell on our site. Concerning the Cheung-Bozetepe affair: In addition to the points already made: 1) In the mid 80s Cheung got on my personal excrement list by pooh-poohing kali's kick destructions to Guro I, then using them in a magazine article as WC kick destructions. 2) Cheung had a tendency to bark and not long before had an article in IKF pointing out the "superiority" of Wing Chun over VT, and issued what sure sounded like open challenges. Thus, I can't feel too sorry for him that he got called out. That said, his challenger was 6'7", 20 years younger, and apparently to hear him tell it, an experienced street fighter with hundreds of steet fights. He showed up with a group of his people, who surrounded Cheung, who was in kung fu slippers. There is tremendous advantage to knowing that one will be starting a fight well in advance and preparing for it over a surprised and middle-aged barker in kung fu slippers surrounded by your crew. Furthermore, I'm not sure of Cheung's height, but would guess he was giving away 8" in height/reach. I know what I can do with 8" , , , Like I said, from here way back in the bleachers, it looks like Cheung had it coming, but on the other hand, it cannot really be said to be a scientific test. In that Cheung did not get in much in the way of blocking, EB had little need of trapping. The Adventure continues Crafty --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:26:58 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] FL No Duty to Retreat Bill Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBJH2L177E.html House Passes Public Self-Defense Legislation By DAVID ROYSE The Associated Press Published: Apr 6, 2005 TALLAHASSEE - Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday he intends to sign a bill that would allow people who feel threatened on the street, in a bar, at a ball game - or just about anywhere - to ``meet force with force'' to defend themselves without fear of being prosecuted. The measure, the top priority of the National Rifle Association in Florida this year, passed 94-20 in the House. It had already passed the Senate. The bill essentially extends and codifies a right Floridians already have in their homes or cars, saying that there's no need to retreat before fighting back. People attacked in their homes generally don't have to back off. But in public spaces, deadly force can only be used after trying to retreat. ``I'm sorry people, but if I'm attacked I shouldn't have a duty to retreat,'' said the bill's sponsor, Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala. ``That's a good way to get shot in the back.'' Baxley said that if people have the clear right to defend themselves without having to worry about the legal consequences, criminals will think twice. ``Some violent rape will not occur because somebody will feel empowered by this bill,'' Baxley said. ``Somebody's child will not be abducted ... you're going to prevent a murder.'' Opponents said the idea will legalize shootouts in the streets. ``This bill creates a wild, wild west out there,'' said Rep. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood. Bush, who has championed tougher penalties for people convicted of using guns in crimes, said he believed the measure was a good idea. ``I'm comfortable that the bill is a bill that relates to self- defense,'' Bush said. ``It's a good, commonsense, anti- crime issue.'' The measure makes it clear in state law what courts have generally ruled in Florida - that there's no duty to retreat before fighting back if you're in your home, workplace or car. But it also extends the right outside the home, saying that ``a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be, has no duty to retreat.'' The bill says that person has ``the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so, to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.'' The sponsor, Baxley, also led the failed legislative effort to keep Terri Schiavo alive by blocking the removal of her feeding tube - and decried a growing ``culture of death.'' ``For a House that talks about the culture of life, it's ironic that we would be devaluing life in this bill,'' said Rep. Dan Gelber, D-Miami Beach. ``You are telling people when they are in the midst of an emotional moment ... you can stand your ground until death happens.'' Baxley and other supporters, however, said the measure brings Florida in line with the law of much of the land. Alan Korwin, an author of several books on gun laws and papers defending gun ownership, said the right to use a gun for self-defense in most situations is ``longstanding law that's well established.'' --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest