Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:51:06 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #236 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BE_AMAZED,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. BJJ vs. FMA and other stuff (jason couture) 2. maybe its better to train with idiots? (Francis Serrano) 3. Re: BJJ vs. FMA and other stuff (Jared Dame) 4. Re: BJJ vs. FMA and other stuff (Daniel Arola) 5. Re: maybe its better to train with idiots? (Daniel Arola) 6. Training with idiots (Michael Koblic) 7. Re: maybe its better to train with idiots? (Jared Dame) 8. The correct idiot angles for BJJ... (fistwind@att.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 07:09:13 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] BJJ vs. FMA and other stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I always get a kick out of people trying to dispute which self-defense system is better. I have seen BJJ students that couldn't defend themselves to save their lives. I've also seen FMA students that would get smashed into the ground by the everyday joe if they were caught in a fight. Now, the flip side. Both of these arts also have very dangerous people involved in them. People you don't want to mess with. In my opinion it's not the art that matters it's the person behind the art. To make your art work you need aggressive drive, proper attitude and hard training (with cross training in ground work and stand up). Next issue..... Practice partners. Yup, they are hard to find. It seems (in my area) no one gives a rats ass about learning or practicing martial arts. Oh well (sigh). If you find someone who can give you a proper #1 strike, great! If not, adapt and over come. That's good training too! The goal is to get good enough where it doesn't matter what funky angle the strike comes from. Here I am preaching to the choir, right!? **JASON COUTURE** __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Francis Serrano Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 07:43:08 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] maybe its better to train with idiots? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Man Malcolm, your girlfriend must not read the digest if you go around calling her an idiot... What's her e-mail again? Gumagalang, Francis T. B. Serrano Francis Serrano francis@francisserrano.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:32:29 -0600 From: Jared Dame To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] BJJ vs. FMA and other stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I will agree with that... I have seen a Taekwondo guy that is a mean mother when it comes to fighting ... although he did not follow the solid tradition of his art yet adapted it with what works for him. Personally I just enjoy BJJ and FMA so I practice both as often as I can. Out On 7/3/05, jason couture wrote: > > I always get a kick out of people trying to dispute > which self-defense system is better. I have seen BJJ > students that couldn't defend themselves to save their > lives. I've also seen FMA students that would get > smashed into the ground by the everyday joe if they > were caught in a fight. Now, the flip side. Both of > these arts also have very dangerous people involved in > them. People you don't want to mess with. In my > opinion it's not the art that matters it's the person > behind the art. To make your art work you need > aggressive drive, proper attitude and hard training > (with cross training in ground work and stand up). > Next issue..... Practice partners. Yup, they are hard > to find. It seems (in my area) no one gives a rats > ass about learning or practicing martial arts. Oh > well (sigh). If you find someone who can give you a > proper #1 strike, great! If not, adapt and over come. > That's good training too! The goal is to get good > enough where it doesn't matter what funky angle the > strike comes from. Here I am preaching to the choir, right!? > > **JASON COUTURE** > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- Jared Dame jareddame@gmail.com "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Rene Descartes --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:03:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] BJJ vs. FMA and other stuff To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Anyone who expects and depends on an art of preference to work for him/her is an idiot. It's the performance skill and proper attributes that make the techniques (of ANY art) to work to keep someone from getting their asses kicked. Not the style. That didn't even cost me 2 cents to say. Daniel Arola Fayetteville NC Jared Dame wrote: I will agree with that... I have seen a Taekwondo guy that is a mean mother when it comes to fighting ... although he did not follow the solid tradition of his art yet adapted it with what works for him. Personally I just enjoy BJJ and FMA so I practice both as often as I can. Out On 7/3/05, jason couture wrote: > > I always get a kick out of people trying to dispute > which self-defense system is better. I have seen BJJ > students that couldn't defend themselves to save their > lives. I've also seen FMA students that would get > smashed into the ground by the everyday joe if they > were caught in a fight. Now, the flip side. Both of > these arts also have very dangerous people involved in > them. People you don't want to mess with. In my > opinion it's not the art that matters it's the person > behind the art. To make your art work you need > aggressive drive, proper attitude and hard training > (with cross training in ground work and stand up). > Next issue..... Practice partners. Yup, they are hard > to find. It seems (in my area) no one gives a rats > ass about learning or practicing martial arts. Oh > well (sigh). If you find someone who can give you a > proper #1 strike, great! If not, adapt and over come. > That's good training too! The goal is to get good > enough where it doesn't matter what funky angle the > strike comes from. Here I am preaching to the choir, right!? > > **JASON COUTURE** > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- Jared Dame jareddame@gmail.com "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Rene Descartes _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:06:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] maybe its better to train with idiots? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Unfortunately my friends, some guys do like to treat their girlfriends/mates as idiots to keep them from being smart enough to leave them. Some FMA practitioners are no exception. Mabuhay! Daniel Arola Francis Serrano wrote: Man Malcolm, your girlfriend must not read the digest if you go around calling her an idiot... What's her e-mail again? Gumagalang, Francis T. B. Serrano Francis Serrano francis@francisserrano.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:40:11 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Training with idiots Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Wives, girlfriends, workmates at odd times are possibles for this." LOL! Calling my wife an idiot is more than my life is worth. However, I did try to induce her and my children to help with my training as ordinarily I have nobody to train with. The kids were never really interested enough although when they tried it they got the sumbrada pattern down really quickly. On one occasion I asked my wife to hold the focus pads for me, ostensibly so I could train slaps. So she lined up. Boom, right hand slap, right hand pad went flying. Bang, left hand slap, left hand mitt went flying and with it a pair of my wife's expensive bifocals. That was that. It was only some years later that I realized while using the same pads in a FMA club that these pads were completely useless and would not stay on anybody's hands. Who was the idiot then? On other occasions I managed to convince her to whack at me with a 6' staff (me wearing a fencing mask and hockey gloves). Believe me, it gives you a good practice in coping with unorthodox strike angles, weird timing and, once I pissed her off enough, a modicum of power (I was trying to block the staff with a 26" stick). Michael Koblic, Campbell River, B. C. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:59:12 -0600 From: Jared Dame To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] maybe its better to train with idiots? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If she really was FMA or BJJ she would kick your ass for a comment like that. Salamat On 7/3/05, Francis Serrano wrote: > > Man Malcolm, your girlfriend must not read the digest if you go > around calling her an idiot... What's her e-mail again? > > Gumagalang, > > Francis T. B. Serrano > > Francis Serrano > francis@francisserrano.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- Jared Dame jareddame@gmail.com "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Rene Descartes --__--__-- Message: 8 From: fistwind@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:31:51 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The correct idiot angles for BJJ... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Unlike the last lethargic Lucas offering, I'm going to try to tie the recent BJJ vs. Kali & Idiot training angles posts together. This will be particularly trying, because I don't have the use of a multi million dollar CGI company at my beck and call. On the upside, the subject matter holds WAY more appeal, and you won't leave the forum disappointed! Also, for a big finish, I'm dragging my mother-in-law outside & cutting her legs off...! >"Being short of a partner for practice I actually succeeded in persuading my girlfriend to help me practice basic block & counter."< See, those of us who have done this ONCE have learned our lesson. My wife, who I have begged to just hold the freakin' stick vertical for two nanoseconds, heaves a big sigh of resignation & rolls her eyes with a "Let's just get this over with" look on her face. When finally get what I was looking for, I have forgotten what I wanted to try! Jeebus, all the time I spend in the ladies' section of Macy's just as miserable as I can possibly be, waiting for her to make up her mind what dress she wants! >"The point behind this is, by training the aggressor to strike in a particular manner ( what we would call a correct manner ) are we defeating the object ? In a fight who is to say that the attacker is gonna attack a number 1 point in a number 1 manner ?."< No, not at all. We train those angles in the beginning to get the feel for the incoming attack, and build a response (agressive or retreative, depending on your focus & intent). For the first year, the Numerado gives the beginner Eskrimador a way to train himself with the elements of the style in a familiar pattern. This art is confusing enough in the beginning, Numerado lets the player return to familiar ground when things get complicated, and gives the teacher a framework from which to hang more complex techniques, such as disarms, half beat timing, compressions, empty hand vs. stick, espada y daga, etc. ABCdario lets you familiarize yourself with the basics of block and counterstrike, usually from the Numerado of your style. Here, you learn to defend and attack with basic rhythm and timing, without the stress of "If I miss, it's my ass". The targeting should be aimed AT you, but not actually HIT you, just stop short of your head, hands or knees, whatever the target calls for. Another great thing about Numerado, particularly the Cinko Teros, is it's generalization. You only learn a few basic angles and apply the art to them as it fits you, the advanced Eskrimador. I think an over-emphasis on dozens of angles tends to clutter up the works, makes you start thinking you need a perfect defense (and several backups) for every angle. Really, you can cover a lot of area with the simple basic defenses; Wing, Roof, Umbrella, Inside Deflection, Outside Deflection, Drop Stick. You can apply most of these blocks to most of the angles, interchangeably, with good footwork. Again, clarity lives in simplicity, and you will see that if you stay in FMA long enough. Sumbrada takes the timing game further and adds speed as well. This is important, because it will allow you to work disarms, counters and compressions at a much quicker pace safely, as long as the LINES stay clean. That's why it's imperative to train lines and angles FIRST, and then graduate to free-flow, no rehearsed lines. When the unexpected drop in terrain occurs, you won't freez up, or collapse your defense (you would be amazed at how often this happens to people who haven't had the benefit of angles and flow drills). Of course, you must evolve into the free-flow, Sumbrada is just a stepping stone to it. But it's an important one. >"I think its a good idea to try to get someone who has no training and no preformed idea of what makes a correct strike correct to train some strikes with you sometimes. Wives, girlfriends, workmates at odd times are possibles for this."< The one point to bring up about that is that, although you are correct in saying that it will show you how erratic & unexpected different people view angles, you usually can't RESPOND to these people correctly, like you would in the school with safety gear, or the street with none. You can't smack your wife with a stick in the unprotected hand to disarm her. At least, not, and keep your life savings and/or Cojones. You cannot approach the level of training in your home with family that you do in the school with students. Also, if you DO accidentally whack her, you will feel like an ass for a Loooooooooonnnnnggggg....Time. Trust me on this one, no need to verify for yourself. Next post: >" the average BJJ white belt could probably take out the average 10 year FMA veteran (at least the American versions). Why? Because they spar more than they theorize and criticize."< As opposed to what, the Filipino versions? C'mon, you can't REALLY think that race is a litmus test for superiority? Or are you trying to imply that ANY nation's Eskrimadors are superior to American ones? Ah, the cattle-call of a true believer. When you use words like "average" "probably" and "versions" you can allow for a nice little moral escape route, que no? What is average? Would you say the average AMERICAN BJJ white belt, or the average BRAZILIAN BJJ white belt? A ten year veteran? Going over the edge a touch, aren't you? Could the average (living version, anyway) BJJ white belt take a knife rammed repeatedly into his gut? Because that is the province of a ten year veteran of Kali. As with ANY martial art, BJJ needs a certian window to operate from, a particular set of circumstances to pull it off. It's over emphasis on unarmed ground fighting makes it susceptable to multiple attackers, as well as elemental play (pavement, street, rocks, glass, what have you). The urgency to go for the takedown invites the BJJ player to rush in on ANY percieved opening, which can spell disaster more often than not. BJJers choose to ignore the needed defense of head and limbs for a sacrificial clinch and takedown...That's like betting the farm on ONE roll of the dice...You miss, you lose! It works great on the mat (where striking isn't allowed) but on the rest of planet Earth..well... Understand, every other martial art on the face of this planet has it's own shortcomings as well. Nobody has the whole thing covered. ">they spar more than they theorize and criticize."< BULL$***!! Show me one art, ONE ART that doesn't have it's bigmouths as well as it's quiet badasses, and I'll show you...nothing, because such doesn't exist. I mean really, couldn't you have vaged that up a little more? I have seen the endless crap spewed from BJJers just as much as anybody. Kali spars as much as anybody, and taking a well-placed shot in the head from a stick seems a lot more effective than jockying around on all fours trying to pull off the triangle choke. Before you throw out "Do you carry a stick everywhere", remember: YOU compared BJJ to Kali in terms of effectiveness...If we are going to be honest, then let's do so...and, I DO carry a knife everywhere, as well as keeping several sticks in my car! So, yes, EVERYWHERE. Y'know, the UFC was a valuable thing: It showed that one art doesn't have all the answers, when the upstart BJJ took on all comers. It also showed that many arts lacked quite a few answers, when BJJ was later unhorsed by people who didn't really study the style, just ways of countering it. BJJ, although important, is now just one element of the "ring game" that PRIDE & the UFC have become. The competent strikers have proven thier worth against BJJ hands-down, as well as the precision kickers who hunt the legs & knees. I appreciate the ground game, and I respect the players of it. So much, in fact, that I know I will have to (and would rather) stab them right out of the gate as opposed to going to the clinch with them. Thing is, I stab ANYBODY right out of the gate, and let them deal with the shock and trauma, instead of grappling with them. That way, I don't have to try to sort out who is a grappler & who isn't when the fit hits the shan. My advice to you, my friend: Don't live in a small pond. Get out there & see what other people do, and why they do it. Trying to compare the validity of any art to another in this day of the internet is like trying to see exactly which sneaker is the absolute best for jogging...Get out there and jog! Bobbe Edmonds Edmonds Martial Arts Academy www.EMAA.us "Docendo discitur" - It is learned by teaching. (Seneca) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest