Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:57:15 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #240 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BE_AMAZED,LINES_OF_YELLING, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Fencing thread (Steven Lefebvre) 2. IMAFP Tipunan Sa Disneyland - A Revised and Updated Roster (Absolom Jones) 3. thanx to Daniel (jason couture) 4. Re: thanx to Daniel (Daniel Arola) 5. EPEE FENCING TO IMPROVE YOUR KNIFE SKILLS (Perry Gil Mallari) 6. Re: The correct idiot angles for BJJ... (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:38:52 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Fencing thread Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, As with most readers of this digest, I have to admit this article is full of crap! Fencing, like any other martial discipline has it's good and bad points. Heck, I have fenced, and I train with Ray Floro and he has an extensive fencing background and has adapted some of the footwork to his system. But to say that all FMA systems realize that they are unable to defend themselves is a broad categorization made by someone who has little skill or has trained with the wrong people.(maybe both) As for systematic instruction, you have definitely not trained in Sayoc Kali or a host of other arts that have a well designed teaching methodology that has proven itself out to military units, LEO's, professional fighters and martial artist worldwide. Fencing as an adjunct to enhance someone's training is highly recommended but as a be all and all of arts, well no art can be that. Gumgalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Absolom Jones" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:01:04 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] IMAFP Tipunan Sa Disneyland - A Revised and Updated Roster Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I just got a copy of this information in my e-mail this afternoon and thought that it would interest some of our subsubcribers. Just a quick head's up. The Tipunan Sa Disneyland instructor base has been revised and expanded. It's not just Modern Arnis anymore!! Great additions and even better showing of solidarity and cross system support. Something that has been sorely lacking in the USA groups within Modern Arnis. Absulum ---------------------------------- International Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines (IMAFP) North America Tipunan Sa Disneyland (Gathering at Disneyland) August 12 – 14, 2005 Aug. 12. 2005 Friday - Modern Arnis symposium Aug. 13, 2005 Saturday - WFMAA Expo 2005 Aug. 14, 2005 Sunday - Hilot Expo and Demo Filipino Martial Arts Seminar Open to all ages, styles and levels Cost: $ 100.00/Day Instructors Scheduled: Samuel Dulay – Modern Arnis, Manila, Philippines Godofredo Fajardo – Modern Arnis, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia Edessa Ramos – Modern Arnis, Zurich, Switzerland Abon Baet – Modern Arnis, Garimot Arnis, Pembroke Pines, FL, USA Tom Bolden – American Modern Arnis, New York, NY, USA Jerome Barber – Modern Arnis, Kenpo Escrima, Orchard Park, NY, USA Rey Galang – Lameco Eskrima, Ilustrisimo Kali, NJ, USA Roger Agbulos – Lameco Eskrima, Los Angeles, CA, USA Bram Frank – Modern Arnis, FL, USA John Jacobo – Lameco Eskrima, MD, USA Jay de Leon – Modern Arnis, Murrieta, CA, USA Accommodations: Anaheim Hilton In front of Disneyland Anaheim, CA. Blocks of rooms are available at Anaheim Hilton to event participants at discounted prices. Quads and triples are available. Call Jay de Leon for details and reservations. Registration and Contact Info: Jay de Leon 951-894-1452 -------------------------------------- HILOT SEMINAR AND CONSULTATION International Modern Arnis of the Philippines (IMAFP) is proud to present its Indigenous Arts of the Philippines Series, featuring Hilot Master Gat Puno (Grand Master) Abon Baet of Florida. Gat Puno Abon Baet (right) conducts a hilot session. Hilot is one of the indigenous medical healing arts of the Philippines, characterized by massage and chiropractic manipulations. Gat Puno Abon Baet is a famed arnisador and hilot master and inheritor of his family style of Garimot arnis from Laguna, Philippines which teaches the complete spectrum of the indigenous arts of arnis, buno and hilot. IMAFP’s first presentation of its Indigenous Arts of the Philippines Series will be held in conjunction with its Modern Arnis training camp Tipunan sa Disneyland. In addition to the public forum, Gat Puno Abon Baet will be available for private hilot consultations and sessions. Private consultations by appointment only. Blocks of rooms at the Anaheim Hilton available at discounted rates. Call 951-894-1452 for appointment and accommodations. Hilot Demo, Workshop and Sessions Tipunan sa Disneyland Anaheim Hilton Anaheim, California in front of Disneyland August 12, 13 and 14, 2005 Friday, Saturday and Sunday --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] thanx to Daniel Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey, just wanted to say a quick thanx to Daniel Arola for the great work-out today. All those variations of the six count drill will keep me busy for awhile! Looking forward to our next session. Keep in touch. **JASON COUTURE** ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] thanx to Daniel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net we got more and more to work on, brotha! Looking forward to training again soon! Daniel jason couture wrote: Hey, just wanted to say a quick thanx to Daniel Arola for the great work-out today. All those variations of the six count drill will keep me busy for awhile! Looking forward to our next session. Keep in touch. **JASON COUTURE** ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:43:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Perry Gil Mallari To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] EPEE FENCING TO IMPROVE YOUR KNIFE SKILLS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jye Inigma said: "...they have no appreciable high-level skills. Yes, they know how to perform myriads of flow drills and fancy movements, but they don't have any real skills when it comes to hand/arm/body coordination, footwork, distancing and timing." Though there are parallels in FMA and Western fencing the two arts are still apples and oranges, each unique in their own ways. I found the above statement kinda slap to FMA practitioners... Perry Gil Mallari Philippines Perry Gil S. Mallari Interdisciplinary Artist http://malayanganyo.tripod.com/ graphic design/cartooning/illustration/painting/media writing/martial arts "Become acquainted with every art." - Musashi Miyamoto, A Book Of Five Rings (Go Rin No Sho) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:27:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The correct idiot angles for BJJ... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bobbe, I hope that, by the time you read this, you've managed to fully recover from the aneurism I've clearly caused you. I admit that while I may have been trying to stir things up a bit, I sincerely meant you no harm. My responses are in italics. >" the average BJJ white belt could probably take out the average 10 year FMA veteran (at least the American versions). Why? Because they spar more than they theorize and criticize."< As opposed to what, the Filipino versions? C'mon, you can't REALLY think that race is a litmus test for superiority? Or are you trying to imply that ANY nation's Eskrimadors are superior to American ones? I never said race was a litmus test for superiority, you did. I just think that due to cultural differences, a Filipino native might, in many cases, learn a less watered down version of the arts. The FMAs would not be the first arts to be watered down on the boat over here in the name of commerce. Ah, the cattle-call of a true believer. When you use words like "average" "probably" and "versions" you can allow for a nice little moral escape route, que no? What is average? Would you say the average AMERICAN BJJ white belt, or the average BRAZILIAN BJJ white belt? So it's like that huh? I'll say whatever I have to to make (or in some cases, miss) my point. I sometimes say crazy stuff when I'm on a roll...not unlike John Belushi's "Germans bombing Pearl Harbor" speech in Animal House. A ten year veteran? Going over the edge a touch, aren't you? Could the average (living version, anyway) BJJ white belt take a knife rammed repeatedly into his gut? Because that is the province of a ten year veteran of Kali. As with ANY martial art, BJJ needs a certian window to operate from, a particular set of circumstances to pull it off. It's over emphasis on unarmed ground fighting makes it susceptable to multiple attackers, as well as elemental play (pavement, street, rocks, glass, what have you). The urgency to go for the takedown invites the BJJ player to rush in on ANY percieved opening, which can spell disaster more often than not. BJJers choose to ignore the needed defense of head and limbs for a sacrificial clinch and takedown...That's like betting the farm on ONE roll of the dice...You miss, you lose! It works great on the mat (where striking isn't allowed) but on the rest of planet Earth..well... ---You think I'm "Going over the edge"?! I don't. I think stabbing an unarmed man in the gut 10 times is closer to going over the edge than my comment. If you use that sort of force, you may save your butt that day, but will have to make covering your butt a full time job while behind bars (sorry Ray, thats the best example I had). Understand, every other martial art on the face of this planet has it's own shortcomings as well. Nobody has the whole thing covered. --I know. ">they spar more than they theorize and criticize."< BULL$***!! Show me one art, ONE ART that doesn't have it's bigmouths as well as it's quiet badasses, and I'll show you...nothing, because such doesn't exist. I mean really, couldn't you have vaged that up a little more? I have seen the endless crap spewed from BJJers just as much as anybody. Kali spars as much as anybody, and taking a well-placed shot in the head from a stick seems a lot more effective than jockying around on all fours trying to pull off the triangle choke. Before you throw out "Do you carry a stick everywhere", remember: YOU compared BJJ to Kali in terms of effectiveness...If we are going to be honest, then let's do so...and, I DO carry a knife everywhere, as well as keeping several sticks in my car! So, yes, EVERYWHERE. I recommend that you do a few things: 1) Remember that I am not a BJJ instructor. I'm a Kali instructor that felt like playing devil's advocate in the name of stimulating conversation. 2) Stop trying to tell me what I'm thinking/trying to say because you really don't know. 3) Work your empty hand material a great deal before you find yourself in the jail. Be well, Steve Kohn fistwind@att.net wrote: Unlike the last lethargic Lucas offering, I'm going to try to tie the recent BJJ vs. Kali & Idiot training angles posts together. This will be particularly trying, because I don't have the use of a multi million dollar CGI company at my beck and call. On the upside, the subject matter holds WAY more appeal, and you won't leave the forum disappointed! Also, for a big finish, I'm dragging my mother-in-law outside & cutting her legs off...! >"Being short of a partner for practice I actually succeeded in persuading my girlfriend to help me practice basic block & counter."< See, those of us who have done this ONCE have learned our lesson. My wife, who I have begged to just hold the freakin' stick vertical for two nanoseconds, heaves a big sigh of resignation & rolls her eyes with a "Let's just get this over with" look on her face. When finally get what I was looking for, I have forgotten what I wanted to try! Jeebus, all the time I spend in the ladies' section of Macy's just as miserable as I can possibly be, waiting for her to make up her mind what dress she wants! >"The point behind this is, by training the aggressor to strike in a particular manner ( what we would call a correct manner ) are we defeating the object ? In a fight who is to say that the attacker is gonna attack a number 1 point in a number 1 manner ?."< No, not at all. We train those angles in the beginning to get the feel for the incoming attack, and build a response (agressive or retreative, depending on your focus & intent). For the first year, the Numerado gives the beginner Eskrimador a way to train himself with the elements of the style in a familiar pattern. This art is confusing enough in the beginning, Numerado lets the player return to familiar ground when things get complicated, and gives the teacher a framework from which to hang more complex techniques, such as disarms, half beat timing, compressions, empty hand vs. stick, espada y daga, etc. ABCdario lets you familiarize yourself with the basics of block and counterstrike, usually from the Numerado of your style. Here, you learn to defend and attack with basic rhythm and timing, without the stress of "If I miss, it's my ass". The targeting should be aimed AT you, but not actually HIT you, just stop short of your head, hands or knees, whatever the target calls for. Another great thing about Numerado, particularly the Cinko Teros, is it's generalization. You only learn a few basic angles and apply the art to them as it fits you, the advanced Eskrimador. I think an over-emphasis on dozens of angles tends to clutter up the works, makes you start thinking you need a perfect defense (and several backups) for every angle. Really, you can cover a lot of area with the simple basic defenses; Wing, Roof, Umbrella, Inside Deflection, Outside Deflection, Drop Stick. You can apply most of these blocks to most of the angles, interchangeably, with good footwork. Again, clarity lives in simplicity, and you will see that if you stay in FMA long enough. Sumbrada takes the timing game further and adds speed as well. This is important, because it will allow you to work disarms, counters and compressions at a much quicker pace safely, as long as the LINES stay clean. That's why it's imperative to train lines and angles FIRST, and then graduate to free-flow, no rehearsed lines. When the unexpected drop in terrain occurs, you won't freez up, or collapse your defense (you would be amazed at how often this happens to people who haven't had the benefit of angles and flow drills). Of course, you must evolve into the free-flow, Sumbrada is just a stepping stone to it. But it's an important one. >"I think its a good idea to try to get someone who has no training and no preformed idea of what makes a correct strike correct to train some strikes with you sometimes. Wives, girlfriends, workmates at odd times are possibles for this."< The one point to bring up about that is that, although you are correct in saying that it will show you how erratic & unexpected different people view angles, you usually can't RESPOND to these people correctly, like you would in the school with safety gear, or the street with none. You can't smack your wife with a stick in the unprotected hand to disarm her. At least, not, and keep your life savings and/or Cojones. You cannot approach the level of training in your home with family that you do in the school with students. Also, if you DO accidentally whack her, you will feel like an ass for a Loooooooooonnnnnggggg....Time. Trust me on this one, no need to verify for yourself. Next post: >" the average BJJ white belt could probably take out the average 10 year FMA veteran (at least the American versions). Why? Because they spar more than they theorize and criticize."< As opposed to what, the Filipino versions? C'mon, you can't REALLY think that race is a litmus test for superiority? Or are you trying to imply that ANY nation's Eskrimadors are superior to American ones? Ah, the cattle-call of a true believer. When you use words like "average" "probably" and "versions" you can allow for a nice little moral escape route, que no? What is average? Would you say the average AMERICAN BJJ white belt, or the average BRAZILIAN BJJ white belt? A ten year veteran? Going over the edge a touch, aren't you? Could the average (living version, anyway) BJJ white belt take a knife rammed repeatedly into his gut? Because that is the province of a ten year veteran of Kali. As with ANY martial art, BJJ needs a certian window to operate from, a particular set of circumstances to pull it off. It's over emphasis on unarmed ground fighting makes it susceptable to multiple attackers, as well as elemental play (pavement, street, rocks, glass, what have you). The urgency to go for the takedown invites the BJJ player to rush in on ANY percieved opening, which can spell disaster more often than not. BJJers choose to ignore the needed defense of head and limbs for a sacrificial clinch and takedown...That's like betting the farm on ONE roll of the dice...You miss, you lose! It works great on the mat (where striking isn't allowed) but on the rest of planet Earth..well... Understand, every other martial art on the face of this planet has it's own shortcomings as well. Nobody has the whole thing covered. ">they spar more than they theorize and criticize."< BULL$***!! Show me one art, ONE ART that doesn't have it's bigmouths as well as it's quiet badasses, and I'll show you...nothing, because such doesn't exist. I mean really, couldn't you have vaged that up a little more? I have seen the endless crap spewed from BJJers just as much as anybody. Kali spars as much as anybody, and taking a well-placed shot in the head from a stick seems a lot more effective than jockying around on all fours trying to pull off the triangle choke. Before you throw out "Do you carry a stick everywhere", remember: YOU compared BJJ to Kali in terms of effectiveness...If we are going to be honest, then let's do so...and, I DO carry a knife everywhere, as well as keeping several sticks in my car! So, yes, EVERYWHERE. Y'know, the UFC was a valuable thing: It showed that one art doesn't have all the answers, when the upstart BJJ took on all comers. It also showed that many arts lacked quite a few answers, when BJJ was later unhorsed by people who didn't really study the style, just ways of countering it. BJJ, although important, is now just one element of the "ring game" that PRIDE & the UFC have become. The competent strikers have proven thier worth against BJJ hands-down, as well as the precision kickers who hunt the legs & knees. I appreciate the ground game, and I respect the players of it. So much, in fact, that I know I will have to (and would rather) stab them right out of the gate as opposed to going to the clinch with them. Thing is, I stab ANYBODY right out of the gate, and let them deal with the shock and trauma, instead of grappling with them. That way, I don't have to try to sort out who is a grappler & who isn't when the fit hits the shan. My advice to you, my friend: Don't live in a small pond. Get out there & see what other people do, and why they do it. Trying to compare the validity of any art to another in this day of the internet is like trying to see exactly which sneaker is the absolute best for jogging...Get out there and jog! Bobbe Edmonds Edmonds Martial Arts Academy www.EMAA.us "Docendo discitur" - It is learned by teaching. (Seneca) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest