Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:04:35 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #242 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: The correct idiot angles for BJJ... (Felipe Jocano) 2. Mr. Foggie (Peter Gow) 3. Response to Steve Kohn (fistwind@att.net) 4. Re: Response to Steve Kohn (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The correct idiot angles for BJJ... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Steve: Far be it from me to jump into the middle of your discussion with Bobbe, but I would like to react to this statement below.... > I never said race was a litmus test for superiority, > you did. I just think that due to cultural > differences, a Filipino native might, in many cases, > learn a less watered down version of the arts. The > FMAs would not be the first arts to be watered down > on the boat over here in the name of commerce. > Ummmm.....OK, having lived here in the Philippines all my life, I can tell you that even native Filipinos as you put it don't always have the good fortune to learn the un-watered down versions of the arts. More than the issue of cultural similarity or lack thereof, mutual trust is what enables a student to learn as much as possible, cultural backgrounds notwithstanding. I have witnessed the unfortunate sight of students no longer being taught as much as before because they lost their teacher's trust. These are native Filipinos, by the way. On the other hand, I know of non-Filipinos who learned a great deal from a Filipino teacher because their teacher trusted them a great deal. They have honored their teacher in turn - hence the trust, respect and friendship went both ways. We have a phrase in Tagalog: Makuha mo ang kalooban. Which literally means to get the insides, as in getting to the inside (metaphorically) of your teacher. It implies a great deal of trust and liking on the part of your teacher. If you can get the inside of your teacher, you'll really learn the good stuff, regardless of cultural differences or similarities. Bot ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions – no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 08:19:45 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Mr. Foggie Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Foggie, You are corect I did do BJJ for six months(the same as you unless you went back) and did incurr a broken little toe. The reason I left was work commitments. I see that you are still using the computer that I fixed for you. When you get your next virus go and pay some one to fix it you DOG! Be very careful fella, I have plenty of goods on you.  Apart from that we have absolutely nothing to talk about.   --__--__-- Message: 3 From: fistwind@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:37:53 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Response to Steve Kohn Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Steve!!!! >"Bobbe, I hope that, by the time you read this, you've managed to fully recover from the aneurism I've clearly caused you."< It wasn't an aneurism, it was a coronary. Oh, wait...*squish* AHAHHHhhhhhhhhh!!! >" I admit that while I may have been trying to stir things up a bit, I sincerely meant you no harm."< Yeeks, after reading your response, I see MY post has been taken as an attack. Of course, that's pretty easy since I worded it like an act of war... >"I never said race was a litmus test for superiority, you did."< No, I didn't. It was nowhere in my response that race meant anything in accordance with physical skill. >"I just think that due to cultural differences, a Filipino native might, in many cases, learn a less watered down version of the arts. The FMAs would not be the first arts to be watered down on the boat over here in the name of commerce."< Not to be ambivalent (no, really, trying not to!) but I both agree and disagree with this. I do know that arts often get watered down here in the States, but it is also possible to get the real thing. It's alot LESS likely, I'll admit, but it's available. I'm finding more and more that by teaching the art with a standard for excellence, I attract a different crowd than those looking for "rank". I'm really starting to agree with Bob Orlando's point of view about rank being baggage, it seems to overshadow the purpose of training in many cases. In my school, I have reduced rank to three levels, with about four or five years in between tests. However, I don't run a commercial school, so it's easier for me to do this than someone who has to worry about things like rent, utilities, insurance, etc. >"So it's like that huh?"< Like what? >"I'll say whatever I have to to make (or in some cases, miss) my point. I sometimes say crazy stuff when I'm on a roll...not unlike John Belushi's "Germans bombing Pearl Harbor" speech in Animal House."< And you get upset when someone else does the same in response? That's kind of a double standard, isn't it? You should be celebrating, mission accomplished! Don't cry "foul!" after you whack the ref with a bat. I KNOW I was agressive in my response to you, I take responsibility for whatever reaction it may have caused. Also, I recognized the post for the very reason you posted it: To stir things up. Hence my response. >"---You think I'm "Going over the edge"?!<" Well, I'm pushing you to it. Yer fighting too much, dammit! SUBMIT!! >"I don't. I think stabbing an unarmed man in the gut 10 times is closer to going over the edge than my comment. If you use that sort of force, you may save your butt that day, but will have to make covering your butt a full time job while behind bars (sorry Ray, thats the best example I had)."< Yes, you may end up doing that. You may also end up back at your house looking into your wife's eyes and remembering what it is you have to live for. You only go to jail if you get caught. I stand alone on this issue, I know, but I speak from experience: It is just as illegal for THEM to kill YOU, but nobody ever brings this up. Certianly not the people who are sitting in thier homes right now without a moment's loss of thought on the innocents they have hurt/maimed/killed and gotten away with it. I never heard a corpse ask "How did it get so cold?". It only seems to matter to people when the RESPONSE is listed: "He stabbed him 20 times, and the guy only threw ONE punch". Good for him. I don't believe in chances, and if I knew a BJJ player was going to take me to the ground, or touch me at all, I would feel my life was in danger & respond appropriately. How many people have died with the words "I didn't know that was going to happen" on thier lips? Your response is very politically correct, but I believe it's the kind of thinking that will lead to more loss, tears and heartache than a true look at the WHOLE picture. We are raised (in America) with this picture of the bad guy running out of bullets and the good guy valiantly throws his pistols aside & they duke it out mano y mano. That, to me, is stupidity not realism. If I think a group of boy scouts are coming for me, I will snipe them at 500 yards, as opposed to doing anything face to face. I will always attack instead of react. I will always use the element of surprise, superior weaponry, and exploiting weaker targets. I have done this since I was in the orphanage, and times have only gotten worse since the 80's. I do not believe in going through the mental and emotional obstacle course of "Threat Escalation" "Appropriate Response" and "Control". That kind of thinking only clouds your judgement and reaction when you need all systems functioning. I'm not saying this kind of violence is an everyday part of my life, it isn't. I'm only saying that it's there when I need it, just as much as de-escalation, avoidance and negotiation are. This is my tool chest. >"I recommend that you do a few things:"< >"1) Remember that I am not a BJJ instructor. I'm a Kali instructor that felt like playing devil's advocate in the name of stimulating conversation."< So was I!!! What are we talking about here? Go on, tell me this isn't stimulating. >"2) Stop trying to tell me what I'm thinking/trying to say because you really don't know."< I missed it, where did I do that? I never claimed to know what you are thinking. I tried to head you off in a couple of places, but that was only to let you know that I was aware of the implications. >"3) Work your empty hand material a great deal before you find yourself in the jail."< Working my empty hand is no guarantee I won't kill. I just won't do it with a knife. Killing is absolutely no guarantee I'll end up in jail, or even with a guilty conscience. See above. To be honest, I didn't bother finding out who sent the original post, I only responded to a clipping in a different posting. That is my fault. I apologize for any offence taken. Steve, I know who you are, and I think you know me, or know of me. I most likely wouldn't have included so much sarcasm in my original post had I realized who I was speaking to, but the message would still be the same. I'm not trying to tell you what you think, or attack you. I am challenging your posting due to the wording of it. Which, by your own admission, is what you wanted. Peace between us, Bobbe Edmonds www.EMAA.us --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:48:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Response to Steve Kohn To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Bobbe, I'm usually not one to backpedal, but I will a little in this instance. I admit that I was in the mood to rant the day I sent off that post and am guilty of doing a bit of talking out of my a**...and continued that trend in my response to you! So, no offense meant to you either and...yes my friend, I do know who you are from some of the nice comments I've gotten from you regarding my past posts. The only thing I may still have a problem with is being thought of as "politically correct"!!Bummer. I'm sure I'll live to get over it though. Peace between us it is. Be well, Steve fistwind@att.net wrote: Hey Steve!!!! >"Bobbe, I hope that, by the time you read this, you've managed to fully recover from the aneurism I've clearly caused you."< It wasn't an aneurism, it was a coronary. Oh, wait...*squish* AHAHHHhhhhhhhhh!!! >" I admit that while I may have been trying to stir things up a bit, I sincerely meant you no harm."< Yeeks, after reading your response, I see MY post has been taken as an attack. Of course, that's pretty easy since I worded it like an act of war... >"I never said race was a litmus test for superiority, you did."< No, I didn't. It was nowhere in my response that race meant anything in accordance with physical skill. >"I just think that due to cultural differences, a Filipino native might, in many cases, learn a less watered down version of the arts. The FMAs would not be the first arts to be watered down on the boat over here in the name of commerce."< Not to be ambivalent (no, really, trying not to!) but I both agree and disagree with this. I do know that arts often get watered down here in the States, but it is also possible to get the real thing. It's alot LESS likely, I'll admit, but it's available. I'm finding more and more that by teaching the art with a standard for excellence, I attract a different crowd than those looking for "rank". I'm really starting to agree with Bob Orlando's point of view about rank being baggage, it seems to overshadow the purpose of training in many cases. In my school, I have reduced rank to three levels, with about four or five years in between tests. However, I don't run a commercial school, so it's easier for me to do this than someone who has to worry about things like rent, utilities, insurance, etc. >"So it's like that huh?"< Like what? >"I'll say whatever I have to to make (or in some cases, miss) my point. I sometimes say crazy stuff when I'm on a roll...not unlike John Belushi's "Germans bombing Pearl Harbor" speech in Animal House."< And you get upset when someone else does the same in response? That's kind of a double standard, isn't it? You should be celebrating, mission accomplished! Don't cry "foul!" after you whack the ref with a bat. I KNOW I was agressive in my response to you, I take responsibility for whatever reaction it may have caused. Also, I recognized the post for the very reason you posted it: To stir things up. Hence my response. >"---You think I'm "Going over the edge"?!<" Well, I'm pushing you to it. Yer fighting too much, dammit! SUBMIT!! >"I don't. I think stabbing an unarmed man in the gut 10 times is closer to going over the edge than my comment. If you use that sort of force, you may save your butt that day, but will have to make covering your butt a full time job while behind bars (sorry Ray, thats the best example I had)."< Yes, you may end up doing that. You may also end up back at your house looking into your wife's eyes and remembering what it is you have to live for. You only go to jail if you get caught. I stand alone on this issue, I know, but I speak from experience: It is just as illegal for THEM to kill YOU, but nobody ever brings this up. Certianly not the people who are sitting in thier homes right now without a moment's loss of thought on the innocents they have hurt/maimed/killed and gotten away with it. I never heard a corpse ask "How did it get so cold?". It only seems to matter to people when the RESPONSE is listed: "He stabbed him 20 times, and the guy only threw ONE punch". Good for him. I don't believe in chances, and if I knew a BJJ player was going to take me to the ground, or touch me at all, I would feel my life was in danger & respond appropriately. How many people have died with the words "I didn't know that was going to happen" on thier lips? Your response is very politically correct, but I believe it's the kind of thinking that will lead to more loss, tears and heartache than a true look at the WHOLE picture. We are raised (in America) with this picture of the bad guy running out of bullets and the good guy valiantly throws his pistols aside & they duke it out mano y mano. That, to me, is stupidity not realism. If I think a group of boy scouts are coming for me, I will snipe them at 500 yards, as opposed to doing anything face to face. I will always attack instead of react. I will always use the element of surprise, superior weaponry, and exploiting weaker targets. I have done this since I was in the orphanage, and times have only gotten worse since the 80's. I do not believe in going through the mental and emotional obstacle course of "Threat Escalation" "Appropriate Response" and "Control". That kind of thinking only clouds your judgement and reaction when you need all systems functioning. I'm not saying this kind of violence is an everyday part of my life, it isn't. I'm only saying that it's there when I need it, just as much as de-escalation, avoidance and negotiation are. This is my tool chest. >"I recommend that you do a few things:"< >"1) Remember that I am not a BJJ instructor. I'm a Kali instructor that felt like playing devil's advocate in the name of stimulating conversation."< So was I!!! What are we talking about here? Go on, tell me this isn't stimulating. >"2) Stop trying to tell me what I'm thinking/trying to say because you really don't know."< I missed it, where did I do that? I never claimed to know what you are thinking. I tried to head you off in a couple of places, but that was only to let you know that I was aware of the implications. >"3) Work your empty hand material a great deal before you find yourself in the jail."< Working my empty hand is no guarantee I won't kill. I just won't do it with a knife. Killing is absolutely no guarantee I'll end up in jail, or even with a guilty conscience. See above. To be honest, I didn't bother finding out who sent the original post, I only responded to a clipping in a different posting. That is my fault. I apologize for any offence taken. Steve, I know who you are, and I think you know me, or know of me. I most likely wouldn't have included so much sarcasm in my original post had I realized who I was speaking to, but the message would still be the same. I'm not trying to tell you what you think, or attack you. I am challenging your posting due to the wording of it. Which, by your own admission, is what you wanted. Peace between us, Bobbe Edmonds www.EMAA.us _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest