Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:55:56 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #291 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Various points, Seriatim (Marc Denny) 2. Re: knife wrestling (Daniel Arola) 3. RE: RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (1@msfencing.org) 4. Re: grappling and knives (stickfighter@charter.net) 5. Re: RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (WoodyTX) 6. RE:grappling and FMA (Van Harn, Steve) 7. Whip (Steven Lefebvre) 8. Re: Re: Grappling and traditional FMA (Pierre Honeyman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:22:44 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Various points, Seriatim Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: 1: > "So what is the point/ general concensus on somehow you end up wrestling/ struggling/ clinched with someone who has a knife? other than you die" Consider the possibility that you might live too , , , 2: "It wasn't self-defense. It was losing a fight. BIG DIFFERENCE." Exactly so. 3: "Just an opinion, but if you are weaponless, the person with the knife has the outright advantage. If you don't knock them out or disarm them or run away you are going to get cut. If that person doesn't know any type of martial art and has a knife then the odds of beating them goes up slightly ( they still have a knife ). If that person knows how to handle themselves then the best option is to either find an escape route or find yourself a weapon to even things out." I always like Guro Inosanto's decision tree: 1) Run away 2) Throw things 3) Use things 4) Use your training If you are already at four, there is something to be said for grappling range. Tactile reflexes are faster than visual, and to the extent that you have a hold of his weapon limb you are slowing his movement down. Of course the trick is to be grappling per Kali Silat principles, not MMA ones. 4: >>>actual stick fight and I dont want to pay for a full price. If anyone have >>>a DVD of maybe the dog brothers or anytype of actual stick fighting I am >>>willing to buy a "back up" dvd because it would be soo much cheaper. I >>>have a >>>paypal >> >> Buy the real thing. Buying/selling a backup is illegal. >> Ray Terry > > And of course there is always e-bay. A place where you can get all kinds > of > otherwise expensive DVDs/tapes for real cheap. Thank you everyone who responded to this post for the vigor and clarity of your respective responses. That said, I would like to craftily add one small yip to this comment which inadvertently may leave a small erroneous impression with regard to our pricing policy.. Our DVD/videos have ALWAYS been very reasonably priced and have always been more than full length. The prices and lengths may be verified in our catalog at www.dogbrothers.com Also, please note that the Master to our new Staff DVD is now finished and I should have a copy of the boxcover tomorrow. It should be shipping within two weeks. 5: > Arnis grandmaster Tanique dies at 72 I readily confess I am unfamiliar with GM Tanique, but am always sad at such moments. May his students carry on and let his knowledge live. "The wood is consumed, but the fire burns on." 6: I leave on Tuesday for a week in Bern, Switzerland with Benjamin "Lonely Dog" Rittiner, for whom I will be doing a seminar in addition to privates during the week. There will also be the "First Dog Brothers Invitational Gathering of the Pack". Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:28:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife wrestling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If a person were to be capable of moving as fast and as crisp as a clear set of thoughts DURING such a situation, then that is one very fortunate person to have survived such a scenario. Daniel Arola noirpalm wrote: So what is the point/ general concensus on somehow you end up wrestling/ struggling/ clinched with someone who has a knife? other than you die --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 3 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:32:37 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >-----Original Message----- >From: Marc MacYoung [mailto:marcmacyoung@earthlink.net] >> From: <1@msfencing.org> >> So basically, being able to use his knife in a grappling situation is what >> saved Red Dog's victim from a serious beating. Sounds like it's a good >> idea >> to learn to use your knife in all situations, including clinches, holds, >> and >> other various grappling positions. >Ummmm no... >Quite frankly, because it was a flat-out fight, not a life and death >situation... So you are saying they were playing around? Sounds very childish to me. >You're comment about it being a "good idea" is exactly that kind of >thinking >though that resulted in Dawg getting stabbed and... If anyone attacks me and puts me in a head lock I will consider it a life and death situation since I wont have any way of knowing their full intent. They will most certainly get the knife or worse regardless of legalities and technicalities. The attacker deserves what he gets. That level of force crap is just that, crap. At least that's what local law enforcement have told me. Of course I live in Mississippi where we take a more practical approach to things. >While using a knife to prevent having to take your whupping like a man >might seem like a reasonable idea... Take your whipping like a man? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard! Blessings, Rez Johnson "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org --__--__-- Message: 4 From: To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] grappling and knives Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:32:29 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just another opion to this knife thread: We all train for different reasons, But lets not take knife encounters lightly! In a knife encounter plan on getting cut!The only thing that you can hope from your training is to minimize how badly you are cut. Second: When you train your grappling and knife skills you are not just training the physical you are training the thoughts and emotional side of combat. This to is a double edge issue. With training you learn to control your emotions and clearly direct your attack on the best lines. It is a double edged issue because: 1. It can lead you to be over confident causing you fight frist run latter. 2. It can lead our responce unknowingly to a force that maybe more lethal than in intended. (The stabbing in New York Night club).(Remember your training background will play big factor in justifying the outcome) It is because of this that I would recommend training avoidance of conflict by learning how to de-esclate such a fight before the knife is brought in. This way you avoid the legal system, costly medical bills, avoid becomeing some covics love intrest for the next 10 plus years and finally you both live and hopfully learned an important life leason. Now don't get me wrong there is a time and place to stand your ground and protect yourself and loved ones but, on the scope of thing in 80 % of all conflicts there are choises that will leave your ego brused but your life generally intact. We as students of Combat that train and teach will have a larger responciblity to prove to the legal system that our responce is just and appropriate. Remember it only takes one stab,one slash, one well placed strike to change everything! Train hard, and train smart to live a long life. >Mac > > From: T Reed > Date: 2005/08/27 Sat PM 11:13:23 EDT > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] grappling and knives > > Just an opinion, but if you are weaponless, the person with the knife has the outright advantage. If you don't knock them out or disarm them or run away you are going to get cut. If that person doesn't know any type of martial art and has a knife then the odds of beating them goes up slightly ( they still have a knife ). If that person knows how to handle themselves then the best option is to either find an escape route or find yourself a weapon to even things out. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:42:11 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In one of the more celebrated cases of concealed weapons use, a Texas man was getting beaten by an assailant who came through his driver's-side window in a case of road rage. He shot and killed his attacker. It was celebrated because it was the case that was going to shut down the CHL permits in Texas (I'm sure you can see the trial lawyers and journalists salivating over that). The jury took very little time to find the shooter innocent on the basis of self defense. Woody On 8/27/05, Marc MacYoung wrote: > > From: <1@msfencing.org> > > So basically, being able to use his knife in a grappling situation is what > > saved Red Dog's victim from a serious beating. Sounds like it's a good > > idea > > to learn to use your knife in all situations, including clinches, holds, > > and > > other various grappling positions. > > Ummmm no... > > Quite frankly, because it was a flat-out fight, not a life and death > situation (head locks combined with punches are seldom fatal) the knifing > was not a warranted use of force. Don't even begin to tell yourself it was > because that is NOT what the courts or the cops would have ruled either. > You're comment about it being a "good idea" is exactly that kind of thinking > though that resulted in Dawg getting stabbed and -- had the guy been > caught -- would have resulted in him being charged (and in all likelihood, > convicted) for assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder. The guy was > losing a fight -- that he had participated in and help create -- and he > escalated it by stabbing Dawg. That's how such events are normally looked > upon by cops/courts and why people who want to learn how to use knives > believe they can be convicted for "attempted self-defense." It wasn't > self-defense. It was losing a fight. BIG DIFFERENCE. > > While using a knife to prevent having to take your whupping like a man might > seem like a reasonable idea, I'd like to point to Ping Wilson AND the > infamous smoking ban/dead bouncer/kali training/murder conviction. Both of > whom claimed it was self-defense. > > In the last, if it hadn't had been such a well trained strike (and some > other stuff that Isaias Umali obviously picked up about how to get away > with his crime) it would have been far more arguable that it was > self-defense. Add to that the fact that the two guys who started the > "smoking ban" fight were in the wrong and it was two against one when the > Umali stabbed Blake -- who was doing his job). Even Ping Wilson got > convicted -- partly -- because of his actions that lead to the altercation. > Yes, he was getting smacked down for what he had said, but killing someone > over it often doesn't stand up in court. > > Be careful about what you think is good training ideas because often the > Even-A-Bad-Theory-Is-Better-Than-No-Theory-In-A-Theoretical-Crisis-So-Let's-U se-That-Excuse-To-Promote-A-Bad-Theory > kind of thinking is a great way to train yourself to get raped in prison if > you use these "good ideas." > > M > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: "Eskrima Digest (E-mail)" Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:56:35 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE:grappling and FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Fredrico wrote: "I just wanted to clarify, my question IS NOT how to blend grappling and FMA. Rather it is how do traditional blade oriented FMA styles approach grappling. I know how my own training approaches it, but I am interested in hearing how other traditional FMA groups (traditional/old school FMA vs more modern hybrid styles) view grappling and bladed weaponry vs sticks. There is obviously a grappling context to some extent in many FMAs, from just stand up clinching to some more complex ground work. How did the old timers approach this question? I know some styles view grappling with blades as not being an optimal situation, are there styles that favor grappling with a blade? If so why? So just to clarify once more, this is more a historical oriented question vs a technique driven question. Meaning, I am looking at traditions of view, vs trying to find new techniques." Well, regarding "old timers" in the sense of been around awhile(I sure don't consider him OLD), take a look at these writings by Mushtaq Ali Al Ansari's Webblog on just that subject and his views on how to train for it. Food for thought and some suggestions for training ideas. http://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_tracelesswarrior_archive.htm l#110755639511091687 http://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_tracelesswarrior_archive.htm l#110757747528908359 http://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_tracelesswarrior_archive.htm l#110759032978465386 We will be having out Fall Gathering of the tribes in Grand Rapids, MI on Oct. 14-16. As usual, Mushtaq will be teaching a good portion. It is always an interesting time. I will post the particulars here when all is finalized. Steve --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:59:01 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Whip Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Guys, Anthony Delongis whip material is very well detailed. I haven't read the new book from Mr. Meadows yet, but have it ordered and ready in the stack to complete! Stay tuned for the Sayoc Whip video which will introduce you to the Sayoc Kali version of whip work. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:13:38 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Grappling and traditional FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting Marc MacYoung : > On the other hand, it also can be used to understand why "traditional FMA" > tend to be rather thin on the ground when it comes to teaching people to > trying to grapple someone with a knife. (whaddya know, them ol' guys knew a > thing or two about real violence. Funny ol' world isn't it?) You can be as pedantic as you wish, Marc. I really don't care. Pierre --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest