Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:52:15 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #294 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. To: Marc MacYoung (Steve Kohn) 2. Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling (federicomalibago@earthlink.net) 3. Re: Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling (Pierre Honeyman) 4. Re: RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (WoodyTX) 5. FYI - Russian Kettlebell BootKamp in Rockville, MD on 09/11/05 (Mike aka Shugendo) 6. Re: Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling (Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical) 7. Re: RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Pierre Honeyman) 8. RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:16:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] To: Marc MacYoung Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, First let me say that I agree with much of what you've posted here in the past. Having said that, your approach could use some refinement if educating digest members is the goal. Theres no crime in being a straight shooter Marc, but discussions generally go a little better if you don't begin them by assuming an adversarial posture...which I guess I've just done. But let's continue... It seems that your primary goal in posting here is to take everyone to task for all of their endeavors and to attempt to prove everyone wrong in everything they do. This begs the question...do you even like the FMA's? If you don't, perhaps you could find a like-minded choir to preach to somewhere else on the net. It's true that most people on the digest have been fortunate enough to not have the vast fighting experience that you have and could use the advice of someone that has actually "been there", but couldn't you offer your experience in a less condescending (dare I say...constructive) manner? You have a lot of knowledge, its just unfortunate that your tone makes it easy to dismiss. Not everyone is a badass and not everyone needs the info presented as if its coming from one. Additionally, making a point in less than 35 paragraphs wouldn't be a bad idea either. No one has time to read dissertations the length of War and Peace. -Steve Kohn Pierre Honeyman wrote: Quoting Marc MacYoung : > And then Pierre chimed in > > You can be as pedantic as you wish, Marc. I really don't care. > > Pierre, I'd like to introduce you to Master of Arms Rez Johnson...you two > might have a lot to talk about since you apparently have some similar views > about investigating the complexities of violence. Have fun guys... You can leave your lecturing tone of "voice" for your website Marc. This here is a discussion group where people who think you are wrong are going to tell you so. If you can't deal with that, then leave. I posed a legitimate question, and you spent considerable verbiage not answering that question. Obviously your ego gets in the way of civil discourse. Pierre _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:26:50 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: federicomalibago@earthlink.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ok, the stories of Big Red, and the lovely debate on the ethics of knife fighting/escalating an altercation are fun and all, but if I could re-direct the topic back to the ORIGINAL question, were their traditional FMA groups that favored grappling, for whatever reason, in a bladed context and if so any ideas behind their reasoning? So far, it would seem the resounding response is no (well there really havent been all that many responses to the original question, I believe directly only about two), and so it would seem from the overwhelming or underwhelming (given the number of responses) response is that grappling and FMA is more a modern stickfighting phenomena vs something found in traditional bladed FMA. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:59:47 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting federicomalibago@earthlink.net: > Ok, the stories of Big Red, and the lovely debate on the ethics of knife > fighting/escalating an altercation are fun and all, but if I could re-direct > the topic back to the ORIGINAL question, were their traditional FMA groups > that favored grappling, for whatever reason, in a bladed context and if so > any ideas behind their reasoning? So far, it would seem the resounding > response is no (well there really havent been all that many responses to the > original question, I believe directly only about two), and so it would seem > from the overwhelming or underwhelming (given the number of responses) > response is that grappling and FMA is more a modern stickfighting phenomena > vs something found in traditional bladed FMA. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The rules of the game have changed. Traditional SEAsian arts grew out of a tradition of mass combat - so if you went down you either died, or one of your buddies saved your bacon. Grappling wouldn't enter into it too much, except that you'd study ways to take the other guy down so you could kill him, or let your buddies do it for you. Now we more often study for a one on one scenario. Grappling in this context is much more likely. This is all my considered opinion; I am no scholar of SEAsian martial arts. Just a guy who likes hitting other guys with a stick. Pierre --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:14:15 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On 8/30/05, Pierre Honeyman wrote: > Quoting WoodyTX : > > > That's my opinion, too, but the courts don't give a damned about our > > opinions. > > Well we can't control the courts, and damned if I'm going to die because the law > says I can't defend myself. That's not what I said. I was referring to the fact that holding the parents responsible for their kid's morality may not hold water once a trial lawyer finds that the Extreme Tactical Combat Dojo of Self-Defence (and it's somewhat wealthy owner) taught Johnny how to slit a throat without mentioning the consequences. > > Just be as aware of your legal surroundings as you are your physical > > ones. I'd be quicker to defend myself with lethal force in Texas than > > I would in Massachussets. > > I wouldn't; if I have to defend myself with lethal force my location isn't > exactly relevant at that point in time. I really do wish it were that easy. Different parts of the country/world have different justifications for lethal force. In Texas, I am within my rights to use lethal force to protect the life of myself and others, my property, and my car (the last one only at night). I can carry a knife with a blade up to 5.5", and (if licensed) I can carry a concealed handgun. All of those factors are relevant to my decision to escalate. Does the previously-mentioned Massachussets citizen have the same rights and options? A number of people who acted in accordance with "common sense" end up in jail simply because they do not understand the law. I only suggest that anyone considering training in a potentially lethal activity (knife-fighting, competitive pistol shooting, etc) not make that mistake. > > Pierre PS I cannot speak to the traditional arts and knife grappling (the original thread). I trained in both Lameco and Inosanto-Lacoste, both fairly "recent" arts. But I do not at all believe that the traditional arts ignored what is a definite combat possibility. Woody --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mike aka Shugendo" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:19:44 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] FYI - Russian Kettlebell BootKamp in Rockville, MD on 09/11/05 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just wanted to pass on that I am coordinating a Russian Kettlebell BootKamp here in Rockville, MD on next Sunday (09/11/05). The bootkamp is being taught by three RKCs (Eric Church, Mike Krivka and Nick Machnowsky) and will be from 0900 to 1600. We will be covering the fundamental techniques behind KB use, KB workout design and the underlying tension principles that apply to KB's, martial arts and athletics. For more information contact me via the Martial Arts Koncepts web site. Thanks! Michael A. Krivka Training Director, Martial Arts Koncepts http://www.martialartskoncepts.com Phone: 301/404-2571 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Ken Borowiec/Rudolph Research Analytical" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:03:19 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't know much about the traditional teachings of FMA. My instructor mixes Tradition with modern interpretations. My experience is that wrestling with or without a weapon seems to be a newer technique that is necessary today. Allot of people are not trained and from my experience a fight that lasts longer than 30 sec. will surly end up on the ground and therefore wrestling is needed to survive. especially if you get lucky when unarmed and get a hold of the weapon hand. The opponent will want you to let go and you won't, pushing and pulling will end up on the ground and grappling is inevitable. My answer to the question is I don't know if it is old or new but I'm glad it exists. One of my personal favorites is Eskredo. Because in this like any FMA I have experienced can be used empty handed as well as with a weapon. Kenny ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:26 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Back on topic traditional FMA and grappling > Ok, the stories of Big Red, and the lovely debate on the ethics of knife > fighting/escalating an altercation are fun and all, but if I could > re-direct the topic back to the ORIGINAL question, were their traditional > FMA groups that favored grappling, for whatever reason, in a bladed > context and if so any ideas behind their reasoning? So far, it would seem > the resounding response is no (well there really havent been all that many > responses to the original question, I believe directly only about two), > and so it would seem from the overwhelming or underwhelming (given the > number of responses) response is that grappling and FMA is more a modern > stickfighting phenomena vs something found in traditional bladed FMA. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:36:37 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting WoodyTX : > On 8/30/05, Pierre Honeyman wrote: > > Quoting WoodyTX : > > > > > That's my opinion, too, but the courts don't give a damned about our > > > opinions. > > > > Well we can't control the courts, and damned if I'm going to die because > the > law > > says I can't defend myself. > > That's not what I said. Mea Culpa. I misunderstood. > I was referring to the fact that holding the > parents responsible for their kid's morality may not hold water once a > trial lawyer finds that the Extreme Tactical Combat Dojo of > Self-Defence (and it's somewhat wealthy owner) taught Johnny how to > slit a throat without mentioning the consequences. True. I don't know a satisfactory answer though, in this hair world of torts. > > I wouldn't; if I have to defend myself with lethal force my location isn't > > exactly relevant at that point in time. > > I really do wish it were that easy. Different parts of the > country/world have different justifications for lethal force. Sure, but when it's my skin the only one I can count on is my justification. You know what I mean? > In > Texas, I am within my rights to use lethal force to protect the life > of myself and others, my property, and my car (the last one only at > night). I can carry a knife with a blade up to 5.5", and (if > licensed) I can carry a concealed handgun. All of those factors are > relevant to my decision to escalate. Does the previously-mentioned > Massachussets citizen have the same rights and options? Same rights, absolutely. Just because the State doesn't recognize them doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Yes, I'm splitting hairs here. > A number of people who acted in accordance with "common sense" end up > in jail simply because they do not understand the law. I only suggest > that anyone considering training in a potentially lethal activity > (knife-fighting, competitive pistol shooting, etc) not make that > mistake. Absolutely. I'm not saying don't study up on what's "justifiable" in your neck of the woods and what isn't. I'm saying that for most MA instructors, it's too hairy a subject to add onto an already complex curriculum. Thus the "dont' teach anyone who gives you the creeps" thought. Pierre --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:10:12 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> And then Pierre chimed in >> > You can be as pedantic as you wish, Marc. I really don't care. > You can leave your lecturing tone of "voice" for your website Marc. This > here > is a discussion group where people who think you are wrong are going to > tell you > so. If you can't deal with that, then leave. Sure, people can tell me that they think I am wrong. Not only here, but anywhere. They do it all the time. Often with more colorful language. Personally I don't care if you think I'm right. That's not what I'm going for. All I care about is making sure that you have thought out your position before you teach it to some poor, naive kid who follows piss poor information and gets himself in trouble. Do you think I like being "pedantic" and "preachy?" I have to do it because people are so creative in their rationalizations not to pay attention to the factors in violence that make it so dangerous...before, during and after. Of course if you think you can do a better job getting the ideas I talk about in less space, be my guest. > I posed a legitimate question, and you spent considerable verbiage not > answering > that question. Obviously your ego gets in the way of civil discourse. You did? All I saw was this... >> > You can be as pedantic as you wish, Marc. I really don't care. Is that what they call a question where you're from? Now if you really do have a question, I'll gladly try to answer it. But I don't think most people would qualify those words from you as a question. So go ahead...ask a legitimate question. But be warned, my answer may be pedantic and preachy... M M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest