Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 11:50:15 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #296 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (WoodyTX) 2. knife and the law (guro marsh) 3. Re: knife and the law (iPat) 4. Re: RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Pierre Honeyman) 5. Use Of Force, Morality? (Khalkee@netscape.net) 6. re: Marc MacYoung (Marc MacYoung) 7. RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:10:55 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Now we're talking the same side. :-) I call it the "no meathead policy". Woody On 8/30/05, Pierre Honeyman wrote: > I'm saying that for most MA instructors, it's too > hairy a subject to add onto an already complex curriculum. Thus the "dont' > teach anyone who gives you the creeps" thought. > > Pierre --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: guro marsh To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] knife and the law Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm not going to get into the aparent bickering about grappling and knife and law but i will state this as far as angeles eskrima goes we dont have "knfe grappling" if one means rolling around on the ground with a blade tryn to see who wins and to me that sounds rediculous to answer the question asked about that. and on another note as far as law goes if ya get into a situation where a knife is envolved best bet is get away second best is get somethn to use third bet is ya better know how to handel the situation and as far as law goes in my honest opinion if ya are thinking about laws at a time such as that ya already lost and will more then likely end up trying to shove youre guts back in you're belly and i would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6 better to lose in court and live in prison to fight another day then die in an alley or street with a shiv stuck in me. but hey thats just my opinion to each his own i guess. Punong Guro Rodger Marsh Head Instructor Angeles Eskrima C.E.O Martial Art Technologies Representative for the World Serrada Eskrima Federation / Martial Arts International for southwest Missouri http://www.martialarttechnologies.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:19:55 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife and the law Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guess it has environmental applications. Being on an airplane, a bus, in a car, using the toilet (ho hum). If you have to restrain someone attacking someone else...etc As a doorman who had to deal with a knife being wielded in a bar i found out a barstool comes in handy, but if there was no alternative weapon to hand then i guess you are going to have to grapple, hopefully standing up, but what if we slipped on spilt beer? Personally i dont have the time to train in these areas so if someone wants to indulge themselves then im happy to listen to their conclusions - hopefully brief ones! ; ) On 8/31/05, guro marsh wrote: > I'm not going to get into the aparent bickering about grappling and knife and law but i will state this as far as angeles eskrima goes we dont have "knfe grappling" if one means rolling around on the ground with a blade tryn to see who wins and to me that sounds rediculous to answer the question asked about that. -- iPat "Why are we ambitious? Why do we want to succeed, to be somebody? Why do we struggle to be superior? Why all this effort to assert oneself, whether directly, or through an ideology or the State? Is not this self-assertion the main cause of our conflict and confusion? Without ambition, would we perish? Can we not physically survive without being ambitious?" --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:12:51 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting Marc MacYoung : > Do you think I like being "pedantic" and "preachy?" You can't be serious! You *love* being pedantic and preachy. The only thing better would be if we were all kneeling at the feet of your masterful self taking in every word, mouths agape, drinking in your war stories, and soaking up your wisdom! > > I posed a legitimate question, and you spent considerable verbiage not > > answering > > that question. Obviously your ego gets in the way of civil discourse. > > You did? All I saw was this... > >> > You can be as pedantic as you wish, Marc. I really don't care. > > Is that what they call a question where you're from? Now if you really do > have a question, I'll gladly try to answer it. But I don't think most people > > would qualify those words from you as a question. So go ahead...ask a > legitimate question. Nah, if you can't pay attention the first time, why should I waste my time again? Pierre --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:25:39 -0400 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Use Of Force, Morality? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Not only is it not needed, but it's too "specific" to be taught in a general >"MA" class. Use of Force varies from country to country, State to State, and >from prosecuting attorney to prosecuting attorney. Trying to teach something >ironclad to civilians is a huge waste of time. Not only that, who, as a Martial >Arts instructor, has the time or the inclination to get that kind of serious >legal education for themselves? It's not necessary to get a legal education to advise people to cultivate a li'l bit'o conscientiousness about the use of force. In my meager offerings I advise people on day #1 to learn the laws of the state and the the city relating to THE USE OF FORCE ... and this is for MA training, not firearms. Many people don't even think about RESPONSIBILITY. "Responsibility" is all that needs to be discussed to direct the people to the details (laws, etc.). Having advised them re: responsibility one can get on with training ... then you have to remind them :-) >IMO teach the techniques to people who don't make you nervous; You must be psychic. A wussie might appear to be someone who'd make you nervous. A psycho-killer might appear to be someone you'd trust with your kiddies. It takes time (and mebbe a background check :-) to "know" a person ... and you can "know" a person for years only to be easily blindsided by a part of their human being that you didn't know was "in there". This and the next statement take too much for granted . . . > morality has to come from their parents. Idealism, ain't it wunderful? There are immoral people who have/had moralistic parent(s). There are moralistic people who have/had immoral parent(s). If the parents could get the job done there'd be no need for laws. Why are there so many collisions on the highways? The state reminds us all the time ... Safe Driving Speed (Limit) 60, etc. They even cause our pockets to suffer if we ignore their advice (tickets). Maybe if all parents were to tell their kids "Don't drive over the speed limit" we'd have safer highways and no points on the driving records?:-) H'mm-m-m-m. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:58:53 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Marc MacYoung Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve Kohn > Having said that, your approach could use some refinement if educating > digest members is the goal. Theres no crime in being a straight shooter > Marc, but discussions generally go a little better if you don't begin them > by assuming an adversarial posture... You're right. But being told that "use of force is crap" and being called pedantic all in one day got me a little cranky. I wasn't exactly my usual diplomatic self. Rather than resorting to calling anyone a "nanny nanny poo- pooh head" I tried to use humor to still make my point. Apparently the growl came through a little louder than I thought. Apologies if I offended. >which I guess I've just done. No you lodged a legitimate complaint -- as opposed to a cricticism. You will notice the difference in the tone of my reply. However, I will disagree with one point you made. I didn't start in an adversarial position. When the topic of training to grapple a knifer came up I spoke of a friend's experience and that traditional FMA are a "little light on the ground" in this area (for the reason illustrated in the story). My stance on trying to grapple with (or control the hand of) a knifer is "bad idea." Watch a couple of prison tape murders and you'll understand why. But, rather than step on anybody's toes...who is undergoing any such training and believes it valid ... I told the Red Dog story to get people to think. I even offerred to supply details and factors for people to consider -- not to present my conclusion -- but to allow people to make up their own mind on the subject. It kind of went sideways from there. > It seems that your primary goal in posting here is to take everyone to > task for all of their endeavors and to attempt to prove everyone wrong in > everything they do. This begs the question...do you even like the FMA's? > If you don't, perhaps you could find a like-minded choir to preach to > somewhere else on the net. In answer to your questions "No, it is not my intention to prove everyone wrong" Yes, I do like the FMA's" With that answer, your suggestion does not apply. I do, however, consider there to be a very dangerous misconception in the MA world (not just the FMA) and other parallel markets. That is that by undergoing this kind of training you are prepared to handle the full extent of the realities of violence. For reasons beyond the scope of this email, I consider this a very dangerous misconception yet one actively promoted -- as the "use of force is crap" comment indicates. This does not devalue the study of traditional FMA -- which is a wonderful process and useful on all kinds of levels that have nothing to do with violence. These benefits BTW, are why I put on a cheerleading outfit and go "rah rah" about traditional MA training. But for some reason nobody ever asks me about that aspect (apparently the idea of me in a cheerleading outfit is intimidating). I consider these benefits to be the real "gold" of MA training. But now comes the problem. While a big part of the marketing strategy is to promote MA training as "self-defense," that where it stops being about the MA. Moreover, it's when you use said training in a live-fire situation that weapons (of any kind) are like powertools: Mistakes happen faster and are much messier. Putting that in simple English: If you are going to screw up about use of force, you'll do it faster with a weapon art. Does that explain why I get preachy about using your FMA for "self-defense?" It has nothing to do with the art, whose right or wrong about stylistic differences or the value of studying the MA. It has to do with someone possibly dying and prison. > It's true that most people on the digest have been fortunate enough to not > have the vast fighting experience that you have Yes, I have extensive experience with violence, but I don't consider that a mark of good character. In fact, it reflects rather badly on my youthful character and life choices. As such, I try not to use the "Well-I've-been-there -and-everyone- has- to- accept-what-I-say- as -gospel" approach. Sure I could bust someone's head for disagreeing with me, but that wouldn't make me right either. What I try to do is use outside sources and facts to support my points. I also try to show the reasoning that lead to these conclusion. I don't just state the conclusion and expect everyone to accept it because I had a violent past. Now if that gets me accused of being both pedantic and preachy, so be it. I refuse to take the marketing approach of teaching the ultimate streetfighting system. Or that nobody should dare question me because I am the all - knowing ultimate streetfighter. If my violent past has taught me anything however, it has shown me a) there are no simple answers, b) it's never just one thing, c) nothing is cut and dried in this business and d) taking a "I'd just..." attitude is the fastest way to get your brains blown out or thrown in prison. That is where I will say "my violent past taught me..." because I know those four points are as real as the earth you are standing on. Past that things get a little grey and subject to cirumstances. Do I claim to have the answers to these points? No. Do I claim to teach them. in my system? No. Do many people think that my questioning of their contentions is a Socratic set up to get them to come study with me? Yes. Is that what I am doing. No. Do you -- before you take whatever system you know out into the streets to defend yourself -- need to know the four points I just made and investigate them. Hell YES! >and could use the advice of someone that has actually "been there", Okay, here's my advice, before you even think of using whatever system you know to defend yourself, know: a) there are no simple answers, b) it's never just one thing, c) nothing is cut and dried in this business and d) taking a "I'd just..." attitude is the fastest way to get your brains blown out or thrown in prison. Start with looking into the legal definitions and ramification of violence. Do not do this through your MA teacher or fellow students. Go to qualified individuals (Not me either). We can talk about the rest later. >but couldn't you offer your experience in a less condescending (dare I >say...constructive) manner? You have a lot >of knowledge, its just >unfortunate that your tone makes it easy to dismiss. Not everyone is a >badass and not >everyone needs the info presented as if its coming from >one. I agree with your sentiment. I really do. But I am appalled at how many people, don't just want it to be only about one thing (e.g. training), but actively promote that mythology. I'll happily entertain suggestions for how better to get past the damage they can cause with that kind of thinking. >Additionally, making a point in less than 35 paragraphs wouldn't be a bad >idea either. No one has time to read dissertations the length of War and >Peace. Great gawds and little jellyfishes, don't you think I'd like to do that? My question to you is -- without resorting to the "I'm a bad assed streetfighter so accept what I say as gospel or I'll kick your ass" approach -- how do you explain to people why: 1) use of force is not "crap" 2) grappling with a knifer is a bad idea, or worse yet 3) you should train how to stab someone from these positions to people who think they are? Pleeeeease tell me how -- especially when dealing with people who threaten to stab someone anytime they feel they are losing a fight. I'm all ears. M --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:05:28 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Out of curiosity was that when Richard Ghee was running the place or ... > > Yes. > Ray Terry So that would have been in the early to middle 90s. M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest