Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:02:14 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #297 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. You want live-blade 'reality training'? _This_ is reality (Todd Ellner) 2. Re: The Legality of use of force (Kes41355@aol.com) 3. Re: Marc MacYoung (Kes41355@aol.com) 4. Re: re: Marc MacYoung (Pierre Honeyman) 5. Re: re: Marc MacYoung (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:06:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] You want live-blade 'reality training'? _This_ is reality Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net todd ellner spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you should see it. To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go to http://www.guardian.co.uk Policeman arrested over death of son, 11, in martial arts 'playfight' Press Association Saturday August 20 2005 The Guardian A policeman arrested on suspicion of murdering his 11-year-old son was in a psychiatric hospital last night. PC Ian Johnson's son, Conor, died on Saturday night, despite emergency surgery for a single stab wound to his heart. It is believed that he was stabbed with a household kitchen knife. Detectives have said they do not believe that PC Johnson intended to kill his son. Sussex police yesterday refused to comment on reports that Conor was stabbed during a martial arts "play fight" with his father, who is now on bail. It is believed that PC Johnson, an officer with the force, had been giving his son, who friends said he "adored", a martial arts lesson at his flat when the incident happened. Detective Chief Inspector Adam Hibbert, who is leading the inquiry, yesterday said that PC Johnson had originally been arrested on suspicion of murder, but that "other offences" were being looked at. He said: "I am treating this as a criminal investigation, until otherwise proven, and can confirm that a man has been arrested in connection with this incident and is currently on bail. "The man is Conor's father, who is a serving Sussex police officer. It is imperative the full circumstances of the incident are investigated thoroughly. "I am aware that accounts are already in the public arena suggesting some sort of play fight having taken place. I must stress that this is pure speculation at this stage and it is my job to try to establish exactly what occurred." Mr Hibbert, who added that none of the investigators knew PC Johnson, continued: "This is a tragic incident, as is any loss of an 11-year-old child." Mr Hibbert said a number of other offences would be examined in relation to Conor's death before a file was sent to the Crown Prosecution Service for its consideration. He said: "I do not believe Mr Johnson intended for this to happen, but that does not mean a crime has not been committed. There are other issues we have to look at." Police and ambulance services were called to the flat at 10pm on August 13 following a report of the stabbing. Conor often spent time at the flat following the amicable separation of his parents. Surgeons at Worthing Hospital tried to save Conor's life before PC Johnson was arrested on suspicion of murder. He was bailed until September 11, pending further police inquiries, but last night was receiving treatment at an undisclosed psychiatric hospital. Today, Conor's family paid tribute to the 11-year-old. In a statement they said: "The death of Conor is like losing a limb, he was a part of us that can never be replaced or forgotten. "Whenever he faced a challenge, Conor would show strength, determination and bravery that belied his youth. "The greatest loss for those that were fortunate enough to know Conor is that of potential. The potential of watching him develop into an adult, the potential of developing as a friend and the potential for our time with him. A Sussex Police spokeswoman said that detectives were not looking for anyone else in connection with the death. She added that PC Johnson had not been suspended from duty. Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:50:38 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: The Legality of use of force Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Pierre, I have to chime in here for a couple of reasons...I've been an active martial artist for 32 years, teaching for about half that time. I also have been working in law enforcement for darned near 20 years, and have had close contact with police, judges, and prosecutors in that span of time, so I know what I'm talking about here. I don't want to lecture, but knowing the laws concerning self-defense in your area, and passing this knowledge on to your students, is not a question of "morality." We are imparting knowledge that can readily land a person in court (either criminal court or civil court), and a basic working knowledge of the laws in your area is not only prudent, it is a necessity. I know that laws vary from one jurisdiction to the next, but one thing that doesn't vary is the fact that NO judge will accept ignorance of the law as a valid defense. As martial artists, we have a responsibility to know the laws concerning self-defense, to protect ourselves in the event that use of our knowledge does draw the attention of a prosecuting attorney, and also to protect our families. Lives and families can be destroyed when the person whom we have defended ourselves against becomes the "victim" when he decides to sue over their injuries. And, a person who gets a little over zealous while defending themselves can easily cross the line from self-defense into charges of battery, felony battery, even attempted murder (this is not far-fetched at all, folks, this is reality). Laws concerning self-defense are readily available to the general public, and are not complicated at all. Public policy on this topic is usually concise, easily understood, and doesn't require a law degree to be able to know where our responsibilities as citizens lie. Becoming familiar with your local laws (be it municipal, county, or state) is just plain good judgment, and if we are teachers, we owe it to our students to pass on knowledge concerning all areas of self-defense, not just the physical aspects, but the legal implications of our actions as well. It's just good business, and also keeps things in the proper perspective. A gun owner knows the laws of their area concerning use of his/her weapon; whether we like it or not, marital artists bears the same responsibility. To believe otherwise is foolhardy at best. Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima In a message dated 8/30/2005 1:27:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Not only is it not needed, but it's too "specific" to be taught in a general "MA" class. Use of Force varies from country to country, State to State, and from prosecuting attorney to prosecuting attorney. Trying to teach something ironclad to civilians is a huge waste of time. Not only that, who, as a Martial Arts instructor, has the time or the inclination to get that kind of serious legal education for themselves? IMO teach the techniques to people who don't make you nervous; morality has to come from their parents. Pierre --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:00:01 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Marc MacYoung Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc, I found one have found you to be an invaluable source of information on a variety of topics, and look forward to and welcome your input in this forum. Sometimes people get their feathers ruffled over your delivery, but they need to look past that for the message contained in your posts. Way, way too much martial arts training is based upon speculation, and your posts put a healthy dose of reality on subjects that can get a bit ridiculous at times. Keep posting here, Marc, and folks, listen up...the man knows what he's talking about, don't be so danged sensitive. Kim Satterfield In a message dated 8/31/2005 5:34:38 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Sure, people can tell me that they think I am wrong. Not only here, but anywhere. They do it all the time. Often with more colorful language. Personally I don't care if you think I'm right. That's not what I'm going for. All I care about is making sure that you have thought out your position before you teach it to some poor, naive kid who follows piss poor information and gets himself in trouble. Do you think I like being "pedantic" and "preachy?" I have to do it because people are so creative in their rationalizations not to pay attention to the factors in violence that make it so dangerous...before, during and after. Of course if you think you can do a better job getting the ideas I talk about in less space, be my guest. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:46:08 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Marc MacYoung Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting Marc MacYoung : > Pleeeeease tell me how -- especially when dealing with people who threaten > to stab someone anytime they feel they are losing a fight. I'm all ears. The presupposition is that they didn't start it, and consider a "fight" a mortal threat. I haven't been in a "fight" since high school, and I hope I don't have to be. If I do get into one that I couldn't get out of, I have to take it as seriously as I need to. If I *can't* get out of it with non-lethal force, then I *must* take the next step. I don't have *any* idea if I'm in for just some bruises, or if I'm in for much worse. The way I see it, if I'm armed, then fighting is not a luxury I can afford. Any physical altercation I get into will involve the threat of lethal force, because I brought it. If I want to fight, that is brawl, then I have to make the decision to leave the knife/gun/baseball bat at home and take my chances. Maybe with enough intensive scenario training a civilian can apply use of force rules on the fly. I don't have that training, and I doubt that I ever will. So stating some "use of force" rules is useless to me; I'm not going to be *able* to take them into account when I need them anyhow. In fact worrying about the law, the police, and jail gets people killed or crippled. It happened this summer to a martial arts instructor here in Vancouver. Thinking "Gee they're just kids, I don't want to hurt them" earned him a lacerated liver and a lengthy hospital stay. If you live in a self-defense hostile environment, then when you use any force to defend yourself adequately, you're probably legally screwed. There's not much, aside from moving to a more friendly area, that you can do about that. So curse the government, and live. Pierre --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:18:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Marc MacYoung To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, Thanks for a very diplomatic, open-minded reponse. I don't have much else to add...I just wanted to throw my thoughts out to you as I believe you do have a lot of valid information to offer. I don't view the system I practice as religion and try to consider all experience based information...regardless of the source. And no, that is not meant to be a backhanded compliment. I mean sources outside of the system I practice and teach. Let me just be clear in that I absolutely believe that it's an insanely dangerous thing to allow any FMA student to think that by doing static drills, he is in any way equipped to handle a real knife fight...or any fight really. I don't. To be very honest, If I didn't like the attributes one can develop from knife drills, I'd be extremely hesitant to ever teach knife as I'd hate to be responsible for what could be a potentially fatal false sense of security. It's shameful behavior to market such a thing to the general public. I've seen plenty of prison knife attacks on film too and they don't look like any drills I've ever seen. They happen very quickly and very scary. I've been training knife techniques for over ten years and none of that training has made me feel at all knife proof. I was fortunate enough to have an instructor that taught me to be afraid of a knife...and I'm damn glad he did. Best, Steve Marc MacYoung wrote: Steve Kohn > Having said that, your approach could use some refinement if educating > digest members is the goal. Theres no crime in being a straight shooter > Marc, but discussions generally go a little better if you don't begin them > by assuming an adversarial posture... You're right. But being told that "use of force is crap" and being called pedantic all in one day got me a little cranky. I wasn't exactly my usual diplomatic self. Rather than resorting to calling anyone a "nanny nanny poo- pooh head" I tried to use humor to still make my point. Apparently the growl came through a little louder than I thought. Apologies if I offended. >which I guess I've just done. No you lodged a legitimate complaint -- as opposed to a cricticism. You will notice the difference in the tone of my reply. However, I will disagree with one point you made. I didn't start in an adversarial position. When the topic of training to grapple a knifer came up I spoke of a friend's experience and that traditional FMA are a "little light on the ground" in this area (for the reason illustrated in the story). My stance on trying to grapple with (or control the hand of) a knifer is "bad idea." Watch a couple of prison tape murders and you'll understand why. But, rather than step on anybody's toes...who is undergoing any such training and believes it valid ... I told the Red Dog story to get people to think. I even offerred to supply details and factors for people to consider -- not to present my conclusion -- but to allow people to make up their own mind on the subject. It kind of went sideways from there. > It seems that your primary goal in posting here is to take everyone to > task for all of their endeavors and to attempt to prove everyone wrong in > everything they do. This begs the question...do you even like the FMA's? > If you don't, perhaps you could find a like-minded choir to preach to > somewhere else on the net. In answer to your questions "No, it is not my intention to prove everyone wrong" Yes, I do like the FMA's" With that answer, your suggestion does not apply. I do, however, consider there to be a very dangerous misconception in the MA world (not just the FMA) and other parallel markets. That is that by undergoing this kind of training you are prepared to handle the full extent of the realities of violence. For reasons beyond the scope of this email, I consider this a very dangerous misconception yet one actively promoted -- as the "use of force is crap" comment indicates. This does not devalue the study of traditional FMA -- which is a wonderful process and useful on all kinds of levels that have nothing to do with violence. These benefits BTW, are why I put on a cheerleading outfit and go "rah rah" about traditional MA training. But for some reason nobody ever asks me about that aspect (apparently the idea of me in a cheerleading outfit is intimidating). I consider these benefits to be the real "gold" of MA training. But now comes the problem. While a big part of the marketing strategy is to promote MA training as "self-defense," that where it stops being about the MA. Moreover, it's when you use said training in a live-fire situation that weapons (of any kind) are like powertools: Mistakes happen faster and are much messier. Putting that in simple English: If you are going to screw up about use of force, you'll do it faster with a weapon art. Does that explain why I get preachy about using your FMA for "self-defense?" It has nothing to do with the art, whose right or wrong about stylistic differences or the value of studying the MA. It has to do with someone possibly dying and prison. > It's true that most people on the digest have been fortunate enough to not > have the vast fighting experience that you have Yes, I have extensive experience with violence, but I don't consider that a mark of good character. In fact, it reflects rather badly on my youthful character and life choices. As such, I try not to use the "Well-I've-been-there -and-everyone- has- to- accept-what-I-say- as -gospel" approach. Sure I could bust someone's head for disagreeing with me, but that wouldn't make me right either. What I try to do is use outside sources and facts to support my points. I also try to show the reasoning that lead to these conclusion. I don't just state the conclusion and expect everyone to accept it because I had a violent past. Now if that gets me accused of being both pedantic and preachy, so be it. I refuse to take the marketing approach of teaching the ultimate streetfighting system. Or that nobody should dare question me because I am the all - knowing ultimate streetfighter. If my violent past has taught me anything however, it has shown me a) there are no simple answers, b) it's never just one thing, c) nothing is cut and dried in this business and d) taking a "I'd just..." attitude is the fastest way to get your brains blown out or thrown in prison. That is where I will say "my violent past taught me..." because I know those four points are as real as the earth you are standing on. Past that things get a little grey and subject to cirumstances. Do I claim to have the answers to these points? No. Do I claim to teach them. in my system? No. Do many people think that my questioning of their contentions is a Socratic set up to get them to come study with me? Yes. Is that what I am doing. No. Do you -- before you take whatever system you know out into the streets to defend yourself -- need to know the four points I just made and investigate them. Hell YES! >and could use the advice of someone that has actually "been there", Okay, here's my advice, before you even think of using whatever system you know to defend yourself, know: a) there are no simple answers, b) it's never just one thing, c) nothing is cut and dried in this business and d) taking a "I'd just..." attitude is the fastest way to get your brains blown out or thrown in prison. Start with looking into the legal definitions and ramification of violence. Do not do this through your MA teacher or fellow students. Go to qualified individuals (Not me either). We can talk about the rest later. >but couldn't you offer your experience in a less condescending (dare I >say...constructive) manner? You have a lot >of knowledge, its just >unfortunate that your tone makes it easy to dismiss. Not everyone is a >badass and not >everyone needs the info presented as if its coming from >one. I agree with your sentiment. I really do. But I am appalled at how many people, don't just want it to be only about one thing (e.g. training), but actively promote that mythology. I'll happily entertain suggestions for how better to get past the damage they can cause with that kind of thinking. >Additionally, making a point in less than 35 paragraphs wouldn't be a bad >idea either. No one has time to read dissertations the length of War and >Peace. Great gawds and little jellyfishes, don't you think I'd like to do that? My question to you is -- without resorting to the "I'm a bad assed streetfighter so accept what I say as gospel or I'll kick your ass" approach -- how do you explain to people why: 1) use of force is not "crap" 2) grappling with a knifer is a bad idea, or worse yet 3) you should train how to stab someone from these positions to people who think they are? Pleeeeease tell me how -- especially when dealing with people who threaten to stab someone anytime they feel they are losing a fight. I'm all ears. M _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest