Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:29:17 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #300 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: One last law question. (Felipe Jocano) 2. Defense or offense? (Marc MacYoung) 3. (no subject) (howard@one.net) 4. Re: One last law question.-register my ass! (Daniel Arola) 5. City law (David Hamilton) 6. Re: (no subject) (Pierre Honeyman) 7. Re: the art of diplomacy (Kes41355@aol.com) 8. Re: One last law question.-register my ass! (Steve Kohn) 9. Re: Getting familiar with your laws (Kes41355@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 01:16:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] One last law question. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net TJ, I knew a boxer who is in the Air > Force > and he said he had to be registerd as a lethal > weapon. > > Ask to see his registration papers. :-) That should be fun. :-) Seriously, this particular urban legend goes back to the 1960s. The product of some silly TV show so I understand. The line goes, "I'm warning you, my hands are registered as deadly weapons." Don't ask me what show it was as it was before my time :-). You can see how it spun over the years. Bot ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 03:34:59 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Defense or offense? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve said > Let me just be clear in that I absolutely believe that it's an insanely > dangerous thing to allow any FMA student to >think that by doing static > drills, he is in any way equipped to handle a real knife fight...or any > fight really. I don't. >To be very honest, If I didn't like the attributes > one can develop from knife drills, I'd be extremely hesitant to ever > >teach knife as I'd hate to be responsible for what could be a potentially > fatal false sense of security. It's shameful >behavior to market such a > thing to the general public. Okay, before we even get to whether or not said drills will work to save you against a knifer. Let's take a step back and look at the trouble you can get into before that. Gun folks "train for success." Safety protocols for handling, cleaning and being on the range, (hopefully) prevent accidental discharges. Taining on when you are justified to pull the trigger is a big issue these days. Additional training on handling the court cases is also availible. That's what comes from when you pull the trigger... there will be results. My question is, since a) a knife is also considered a lethal force weapon and b) even a poorly swung blade will cut flesh, why hasn't the same idea of "training for success" come into the blade world? A knife will cut flesh. My concern is not whether or not training drills will fail in the face of a committed and lethal attack, that's still miles down the road. Right now we got ourselves an axle breaking pothole right in front of us. And that is: Those drills will still work in unwarranted circumstances That blade combined with your training WILL cut -- justified or not. What are both a far greater, and a more likely, dangers to you than your opponent, is YOUR fear, adrenalin, over-reaction, panick, those training drills and the refusal to learn counterbalancing factors (like when you are justified to strike). You freak out and swing a blade too soon and you got a world of trouble. Putting that in the simple English: The greatest danger to you isn't the other dude, it's you. My point has never been that the FMA don't work, it's that they do. Which is one hell of a responsibility. Now personally where I get scared is when I hear people arguing about why they aren't going to pick up that responsibility for all kinds of reasons. M --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:39:14 -0400 (EDT) From: howard@one.net To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: "problems with knife" Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 6 From: "Graham Jamieson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 03:37:22 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] problems with knife grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc MacYoung recently wrote (Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #296) : "My stance on trying to grapple with (or control the hand of) a knifer is "bad idea." Watch a couple of prison tape murders and you'll understand why. But, rather than step on anybody's toes...who is undergoing any such training and believes it valid ... I told the Red Dog story to get people to think. I even offerred to supply details and factors for people to consider " OK Marc why is it a bad idea to hold their knife hand (particularly with 2 hands)? And specifically what are those details factors you alluded to right at the start of all this. I was waiting to read them (and the knife grapplers responses) and was very dissapointed that you never got round to stating them. Graham Graham, While you are holding their knife hand (with both hands???) are you keeping an eye on their other hand?? If they have one knife they could have two. The one you do not see is the one that will hurt you. Watch some of Marc's tapes and you will see what he is talking about and why grappling is not such a good idea. I realize that in real life it may happen even when you do not want it to but get up ASAP!! Howard Wilson 4th Deg. TKD Limited time FMA 2 years doing BJJ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:24:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] One last law question.-register my ass! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hands registered as lethal weapons? My ass registers lethal gas depending on what I eat and drink. Should that be government regulated also? whatabunchofbullshit! Felipe Jocano wrote: TJ, I knew a boxer who is in the Air > Force > and he said he had to be registerd as a lethal > weapon. > > Ask to see his registration papers. :-) That should be fun. :-) Seriously, this particular urban legend goes back to the 1960s. The product of some silly TV show so I understand. The line goes, "I'm warning you, my hands are registered as deadly weapons." Don't ask me what show it was as it was before my time :-). You can see how it spun over the years. Bot ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:34:54 -0700 (PDT) From: David Hamilton To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] City law Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net forgot to change title--sorry Ray Note: forwarded message attached. Received: from [168.38.189.2] by web81509.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:33:39 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT) From: David Hamilton Subject: Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #299 - 7 msgs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In-Reply-To: <20050901100055.19113.65083.Mailman@rimmon.cisto.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1101 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.98e X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain San Antonio has city ordances that are more restrictive that the States. My son was pulled over and the police confiscated his knife (cheap S&W clipped to his pocket) even though the cop said he could carry it to work and back--which was what he was doing. Son said he thought cop just forgot to give it back. Gave him anither cheap one. Need to check your city ordances where you live. David -- __--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:17:01 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] One last law question. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Lock blade knives are not illegal, assuming that you mean a folding knife that has a locking mechanism to keep the blade from closing on your hand. Automatically opening blades, including switchblades, are illegal. I do not know the court's interpretation of a butterfly knife, but I wouldn't want to tempt them (especially since I suck with balisong blades). The 5.5" refers to the blade of the knife, not the entire knife. So the Cold Steel Voyager that I occasionally carry is perfectly legal, although it will definitely draw attention if a LEO finds it. http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/tx.txt Woody --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:10:20 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting howard@one.net: > grappling is not such a good idea. I realize that in real life it may > happen even when you do not want it to but get up ASAP!! You do enough BJJ to know that if you don't know *how* to get up, you aren't going anywhere. The argument isn't that grappling against a knife is a wonderful tactic that should be employed at every opportunity. The argument is that studying how to "knife grapple" is something you should consider for the unfortunate situation you *might* find yourself in: you're on the ground, no knife, and the other guy has one. So now what? Pierre --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:53:32 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: the art of diplomacy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Thanks, Tom, for the kind words, but I'm just an old dude who's been around a long time, and who has been very lucky to have the experiences I've had (if that's proper grammar, hell, I'm no English major...;-)...). Kim Satterfield In a message dated 8/31/2005 7:51:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Wow! Kim can get to the point, educate us and speak with clarity without pissing off half the planet. Thanks Kim. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:56:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] One last law question.-register my ass! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think Ray Terry was correct in saying that the registered weapons thing is an urban legend. If there were any truth to that half of my neighborhood (Torrance, CA) would be registered. There are martial arts schools on every corner!! -Steve Kohn Daniel Arola wrote: Hands registered as lethal weapons? My ass registers lethal gas depending on what I eat and drink. Should that be government regulated also? whatabunchofbullshit! Felipe Jocano wrote: TJ, I knew a boxer who is in the Air > Force > and he said he had to be registerd as a lethal > weapon. > > Ask to see his registration papers. :-) That should be fun. :-) Seriously, this particular urban legend goes back to the 1960s. The product of some silly TV show so I understand. The line goes, "I'm warning you, my hands are registered as deadly weapons." Don't ask me what show it was as it was before my time :-). You can see how it spun over the years. Bot ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:48:20 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Getting familiar with your laws Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about...in my jurisdiction (Indiana), switchblade knives are illegal, and if a LEO wanted to push the issue, so is a balisong, which falls under the definition of a "gravity knife" in Indiana statutes, "gravity knife" being an intentionally broad term meaning any knife that can be opened with one hand aided by gravity (i.e., the way a balisong can "fall" open in your hand). But, I frequently travel to North Carolina, where the switchblade is not illegal (at least it wasn't the last time I was there a couple of years ago). Indiana statutes concerning self-defense are intentionally broad and vague, so intent plays a big part in the judge's interpretation of your application of self-defense. I am a Serrada Eskrima player, which is basically a blade art (the balisong is a main weapon of ours), as well as an excellent stick art. According to Indiana statute, a typical Eskrima/Kali/Arnis stick can qualify as a "billy club," but you probably won't be charged with possession of a billy club here as long as it is used properly (within the confines of a class situation, a demonstration, some activity specifically pertaining to MA training). BUT, if you are defending yourself, and after disarming a knife-wielding attacker and placing him in a disabling lock, you decide to impress the onlookers with multiple abaniko strikes about the guy's head and shoulders with your rattan or bahi stick, you have now crossed over from "defender" to "attacker," since once your opponent was disarmed and subdued, you had the upper hand with the stick, and further retaliation was unnecessary to control the situation. Plus, and most importantly, the judge is going to wonder why you are carrying the stick, which has no other real purpose except to function as a weapon, in the first place...makes you look as though you are looking for trouble by carrying around a stick. Intent plays a big part, in fact the key part, in prosecution. If you gain control of an attacker, but then decide to teach him a lesson which is entirely unnecessary to maintain control, you can and probably will be prosecuted. (Interestingly enough, in Indiana the general consensus is, if you feel the need to carry a weapon, then buy a gun, get a self-protection permit, and learn how to use it. Knives and sticks are considered to be the weapons of thugs, and are very much frowned upon by the general public here in my home state). Now, in my situation as a law enforcement officer, if my attacker is known to me to be a violent felon, I pretty much have free reign in my defense, since if I know the person, and know they are capable of extreme violence (or if a private citizen knows his attacker to be a convicted violent offender), it is understood that normal means to control the situation are probably not going to be enough (this is based only on Indiana law). This doesn't mean that murder is acceptable, but if the attacker suffers serious injury, and you can prove you knew him to be a dangerous, violent person, the judge/jury will be much more lenient if the case makes it to criminal or civil court (this also applies if it is readily apparent that deadly force was your only option in this situation). Remember, your actions will be judged upon what a "reasonable person" would do given the same circumstances. Keep that little tidbit in mind, and you won't go wrong...if you are defending your life or others against an armed or unarmed opponent who obviously intends to do you great harm, you may do what is necessary to accomplish an adequate defense. If the local bar bully pops you in the nose and dares you to step outside and finish the altercation, and you accept his challenge but end up wasting him with a beer bottle, you are probably going to have one hell of a time explaining yourself to a judge...pretty much common sense when you think about it. Well, so much for being concise, huh?...;-). I ramble on about legality because I feel that the legal implications of self-defense is a neglected subject in martial arts classes these days, especially since we live in an extremely litigious society anymore (people sue over the damnedest things these days). With violent crime so prevalent in the news, and the regard for human life seemingly on the decline, it would do us well to learn how to protect ourselves not only physically, but legally as well. Local, state, and federal laws are readily available, just visit your local library to keep yourself up to date; statutes are there for public perusal at any time. Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima In a message dated 9/1/2005 6:12:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Lock blade knives are not illegal, assuming that you mean a folding knife that has a locking mechanism to keep the blade from closing on your hand. Automatically opening blades, including switchblades, are illegal. I do not know the court's interpretation of a butterfly knife, but I wouldn't want to tempt them (especially since I suck with balisong blades). The 5.5" refers to the blade of the knife, not the entire knife. So the Cold Steel Voyager that I occasionally carry is perfectly legal, although it will definitely draw attention if a LEO finds it. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest