Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 03:00:47 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #311 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Grabbing The Knife Arm (iPat) 2. Re: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Marc MacYoung) 3. Great Raid (John) 4. Re: Silat (Todd Ellner) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:43:46 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Grabbing The Knife Arm Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net We train all the possibilities, moving from the wrist to the elbow control. The intention i suppose is to be fluid and be able to move from one to another as it seems to be fit at the moment in time. The drill might start when they attempt to draw or from a drawn blade. On 9/7/05, al sardinas wrote: > > If you are going to grab, I recommend going for the wrist and not the arm. > Better control! -- iPat if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the unknown, that which is spontaneous. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:16:06 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Edwin Tam > I don't think you guys are actually as far apart > as all that (that swooshing sound is me ducking...) Well maybe sitting down and having a beer together would help... Okay, in an attempt to be reasonable let my explain an underlying premise of my thinking. Even for someone whose job it is to face violent people it is difficult to go from zero to 60 in a split second. People who can are usually either psychotic or in a warzone. Add to the normal gut wrenching terror of someone trying to kill you, there are deeply ingrained resistances in the human psyche about killing another person. Putting that simply, when you unexpectedly (and that is a somewhat subjective term) attacked, you find yourself in a situation where you are literally putting the gas pedal to the floor while slamming on the brakes at the same moment. Needless to say this effects performance. Now, if you are at a distance from an attacker, after a second you might be able to overcome this reaction and do something. I can't tell you the number of people who, when a gunfight errupts, stand there gaping for a few seconds, before running for cover. Civilians do it worse, but I've seen plenty of trained people do it too. I have also seen it many times among experienced people as well. So training and experience aren't always the cure. This is especially true when such a person gets in a rut about relying on certain tactics, has become professionally sloppy and isn't following protocols, is emotionally involved in the situation or as iPat points out, is tired and/or sick. No matter what your level, there is a often momentary "HUH?" about being attacked and hesitation in reacting to it. The problem is if the attack is specifically aimed at you, you might not have a second to get it together. Let's take another look at going from zero to 60. One of the biggest signs of a heavy hitter is that such a person can control the adrenalin dump. That means even though it LOOKS like he is just standing there talking, he's already doing 40 mph. There are all kinds of small subtle signs that indicate that a pro is ready to rock and roll. Mostly having to do with physical positioning, body posture, range, types of motion, etc., but there is also a distinct "vibe" that tells you you've treed yourself a bad 'un. These subtle signals speak volumes to other experienced fighters, but they don't even send a post card to most civilians...or even to a majority of martial artists. That guy is cocked, locked and ready to rock IN that particular situation. A good example of this are professional bodyguards. They know there are certain times that the danger is the greatest and it is at those times, even though they look calm, that they are the most prepared to rock and roll. Where I have a problems with a lot of what is being taught out there is based in this zero to 60 issue. Much of what being taught and discussed about ways to handle this problem is being done by people who have never seen the elephant, but are teaching/studying how to swing it around by the tail. There is the false assumption that knowing a technique/ fighting system/self-defense system is the same as being able to go from zero to 60. Or, another variation, with this training, in a crisis you will be able to overcome both fear and the natural human resistances and still be able to win the day. It ain't that easy. This is also one of the big reasons why I have such a problems with people who maintain that "If I ever had to use this, I'd just..." and their kissing cousins of "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six." Again, it ain't that easy. In most circumstances where they could still perform it would not be justified (remember the "plan for success" and "my concern is not that it wouldn't work, but rather that it would?") In the circumstances where it would be warranted, you have the gas and brake pedal issue. Such people often make noise about how if they are defending life and family, law be damned... Well first off, I got some bad news for you folks. If I, or a whole lot of other people, step out of the shadows for you, you won't have time. Even if you can go from zero to 60 in a second. This is because ambushes are VERY effective. That's why nasty people use them. The only exception is if you are already cruising at 40mph when the ambush hits. (And you can't do that all the time, which is why teamwork is so important). A civilian equivalent of this is unexpectedly finding yourself in a grappling situation with a knife. A blade coming out of nowhere is a really rough situation to overcome if you aren't already putting down the highway at 40. This is one of the reasons I have the problem with the "I'd just..." and "IRBJB12TCB6" crowds, odds are they ain't gonna be around to be judged because despite all their posturing they were stuck at the starting line pressing two pedals at once when they were run over by someone doing 60. There is not a distance of light years between the standards of use of force and getting up to speed to use force -- that is until you make one. And if you do make one you're setting yourself up for major trouble, one way or the other. Here is where I have my biggest beef against the IRBJB12TCB6 crowd that I have dealt with. Most of the ARE making that deadly distance with that kind of thinking. My point is that knowing the legal requirements of use of force is not an anchor. It won't serve as a hinderance of you reaching 60 -- when it is necessary to do so. In fact, it's an octane boost. Better yet, it is nitrus boost. "When thou seest A,B and C, f*ck ye not around!" On the other hand, these established external standards are like highway speed limit signs. When you see this, this is how fast you should be going. If you use these "road signs" you don't have to worry about going from zero to 60 in a split second, because by the time you are out there in that territory, you're already doing 55. Contrawise, it also helps to let you know where you don't want to be if you're doing 20 mph. This is what I meant when I said people approach this subject ass-backwards. In a 60mph zone, you don't want to be using 20mph techniques or mindset. That WILL get you killed. And it is equally foolish to think that all you have to make 20mph standards work at 60 is accelerate. Grappling with a knifer is 20 mph thinking, you got bigger problems right now. Namely not getting your ass killed. Trying to control the knife hand is also 20mph thinking. You ain't gonna be able to do it effectively at 60, so reassess your goals. The worse the situation the more extreme the measures needed. Inherient in that, however, is being able to recognize that a situation IS extreme before it kills you. And the best way I know how to do that is to know the legal standards of use of force. "When thou seest A,B and C, f*ck ye not around!" but until that time, don't call in a nuclear strike Someone once said to me that "IRBJB12TCB6" could be the logical conclusion of a well thought out process. While I agree it is an important part of a logical and reasoned decision making process -- and while I can understand that person's point -- I personally still disagree with that person's contention. (I will explain why in a bit). However, the exact same words can be used to justify one's own ignorance and refusal to take responsibility. And a majority of the people who use that phrase fall into the latter category. (You spend five years working the Western US gunshows circuit before you try to tell me different). They too state it as a conclusion. The reason I disagree with the idea IRBJB12TCB6 as a conclusion is I consider it to is a step in the decision making process. Let me repeat that: It is NOT the conclusion. The decision has been made, *boom* you're willing to use physical force to protect yourself and face the legal consequences of said decision. Great, that and two bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Now how are you going to go about putting that decision into effect so you don't end up getting raped in prison for it? Or how are you going to stay alive long enough to put that decision into effect when someone is coming to punch your ticket? That decision has some long term consequences and complications that you MUST address That's the full process that concerns me. Knowing the legal standards clears the way for you to get up to speed when necessary. Not knowing them, or dismissing them because "what if you are in fear for your life?" is, in my experience and opinion, a great way to guarantee that you won't be able to get up to speed. Until now, NOBODY has said this -- including me. And quite frankly, a lot of the flack that I have caught over this subject is over the idea that survival is more important than understanding these standards. From a practical standpoint, they're deeply intertwined -- especially when it comes to getting up to speed to rock and roll. And don't tell me "well, that's what I meant" because that sure'n hell hasn't been what has been said. M --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "John" Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Great Raid Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you Mr Nelson Trinidad,Steve,Marco and Lance for your input and suggestions for the Movie"The Great Raid". Im looking foward to seeing the movie. Salamat All, John "#10 Commandment of Combat...Thou Shalt keep thy EGO in check when training lest thou become a bully and cease to grow. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:09:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Silat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Can anyone compare/contrast Silat Pertempuran, Silat Mubai, and Silat Zulfiquari? >If possible throw into the mix Hochheim's Pacific Archipelago Combatives? Direct >answer is welcome. You could ask them. Sean can be reached at http://www.combat-silat.net Mushtaq's web site is http://www.zulfakr.com Hussein's Silat Mubai may be found at http://www.mubai.cc He has a forum where such questions are encouraged. The three senior instructors of the systems are all good friends and have worked a lot together, but their backgrounds are different. Some of the spiritual and mental aspects are bound to be a little different. Sean is a Christian. Mushtaq and Hussein are Muslims. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest