Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 03:01:17 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #312 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0 tests=CLICK_BELOW,NO_EXPERIENCE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. knife grappling (TenDigitTouch) 2. Re: Re: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Pat Kelly) 3. late to the party (Marc Denny) 4. Reacting to Danger. (A. Van Meter) 5. Re: knife grappling (Steve Kohn) 6. Re: Re: Grappling and ol Red Dog (Andrew Maddox) 7. Re: knife grappling (Ray) 8. THE 3rd MONTHLY FMA PICNIC/GATHERING (Ruel Apostol) 9. Re: Reacting to Danger. (iPat) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: TenDigitTouch To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] knife grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Maybe this should be broken down even more. a) legal issues - well and thoroughly discussed b) an untrained person with a knife attacking an unarmed martial artist, 1) standing - from a distance, 2) standing - at close range, 3) while grappling various martial arts responses to these situations I'm not that experienced in fma, and have not really trained much to respond with empty hand fma defenses against knife attacks, unless you subscribe to the theory that all the fma (stick, knife, empty hand) transfer interchangeably. (But it is something I am going to ask to work on with my teachers.) That is a nice theory (stick = knife = empty hand)until you train empty handed against a bad assed cutter (think Sayoc). Then you become dead hamburger. Like I said, I am fairly inexperienced, so take that for what it is worth. Now, in aikido, we have trained several defenses to a knife attack (standing up). These attacks are from an untrained person that is either making a lunge thrust stab attempt, straight on, a back and forth (or variations) slashing attack, or an overhand ice pick stab (like with a club.) We practice defenses to these attacks techniques frequently. They seem to be effective. BUT it is in a dojo, and they are not attacks by individuals trained to be bad assed cutters. So, there are degrees of defense. And at this point in my training, I am thinking that an alert person going 40 MPH (thanks animal) may have ONE chance to trap, lock, disarm the trained attacker, and still faces a chance of being fatally wounded in the process. So how do we improve the odds? Respectfully, Ray Purdy --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:20:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Grappling and ol Red Dog From: "Pat Kelly" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Is there a solution to the problem? Or at least a partial or imperfect solution? Pat Kelly Marc MacYoung said: > > Okay, in an attempt to be reasonable let my explain an underlying premise > of > my thinking. Even for someone whose job it is to face violent people it > is > difficult to go from zero to 60 in a split second. People who can are --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 06:05:40 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] late to the party Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Animal: A lot of travel recently (8 days in Bern, Switzerland doing seminars, privates) has me arriving late to the party in the interesting knife grappling thread. I agree with the zero to 60 point that Animal makes. Very sound. Likewise the one about the glibness of many who use "better to be judged etc". I appreciate that avoiding grappling range can be a fine idea. After all, the knife is a contact weapon. I agree that explosively counterattacking can be a fine idea. What I am not getting is this resistance to knife grappling. In this area I am blessed to be speaking from a point of view of absolutely no experience whatsoever beyond having been threatened with a knife, (but I did buy Animal's "Surviving a knife fight" and "Winning a knife fight" videos many years ago ;-) )but it seems to me that: 1) The first thing out the window is war is often "the plan". Many/most ambushes involve grabbing the intended deceased, see e.g. Don Pentecost's "Folsom Prison knfie fighting techniques". Is this not grappling? 2) Tactile reflexes are faster than visual reflexes and that to the extent that one achieves monitoring/slowing the knife arm/wrist down, one increases the odds of either a disarm or a "receiver grip". (The term "receiver grip" I get from Sayoc Kali. It refers to the concept that although the knife may be in the adversary's hand, you may control his hand i.e. you control the knife. The technique known in Inosanto Blend as "return to sender" would be a classic example.) Please understand that I am not talking about BJJ/MMA type grappling, (which may be an unspoken assumption here on the part of the anti-grappling position?) but rather Kali Silat. Please help me understand. Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:52:17 -0700 From: "A. Van Meter" To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Reacting to Danger. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Howdy list members. I could use some advice from you all. The other day, I was in the passenger seat of a car, getting a ride to an event. While stopped at a light, a man ran up to the car, and stuck a gun in through the window (I hate that the best description I have for him is, 'crazy old black guy', but seriously, that's the best I have). Now it's not the first time I've been held at gun point, but still all I could do was think, "Hey, that's a gun there." Nothing came of it - the driver just drove off a second later when the light was green, and it turns out she never saw the gun at all. She asked, 'What did he want?' Still, it was scary, and I've been asking myself if there was something I could have done beyond calling the cops afterwards, which I did. I don't like that I froze up. : / Does anyone have any input, advice...? --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:13:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife grappling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Due to the nature of the blade, theory is pretty much all we have. I'm not trying to go tit for tat, but some of the Aikido knife defenses I've seen are pretty frightening in their assumptions as well. The best way to improve the odds would be to run like a bat outta hell. -Steve TenDigitTouch wrote: Maybe this should be broken down even more. a) legal issues - well and thoroughly discussed b) an untrained person with a knife attacking an unarmed martial artist, 1) standing - from a distance, 2) standing - at close range, 3) while grappling various martial arts responses to these situations I'm not that experienced in fma, and have not really trained much to respond with empty hand fma defenses against knife attacks, unless you subscribe to the theory that all the fma (stick, knife, empty hand) transfer interchangeably. (But it is something I am going to ask to work on with my teachers.) That is a nice theory (stick = knife = empty hand)until you train empty handed against a bad assed cutter (think Sayoc). Then you become dead hamburger. Like I said, I am fairly inexperienced, so take that for what it is worth. Now, in aikido, we have trained several defenses to a knife attack (standing up). These attacks are from an untrained person that is either making a lunge thrust stab attempt, straight on, a back and forth (or variations) slashing attack, or an overhand ice pick stab (like with a club.) We practice defenses to these attacks techniques frequently. They seem to be effective. BUT it is in a dojo, and they are not attacks by individuals trained to be bad assed cutters. So, there are degrees of defense. And at this point in my training, I am thinking that an alert person going 40 MPH (thanks animal) may have ONE chance to trap, lock, disarm the trained attacker, and still faces a chance of being fatally wounded in the process. So how do we improve the odds? Respectfully, Ray Purdy _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:14:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Pat Kelly wrote: > Is there a solution to the problem? Or at least a partial or imperfect > solution? "Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out"? Hey, you *did* say "partial or imperfect", and I think that's both partial *and* imperfect. 8-) Sempers, Andy -- Andrew Maddox, madsox squiggle radix point net Did I remember to take my medication? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife grappling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Due to the nature of the blade, theory is pretty much all we have. I'm not > trying to go tit for tat, but some of the Aikido knife defenses I've seen > are pretty frightening in their assumptions as well. > > The best way to improve the odds would be to run like a bat outta hell. Agreed. The only times I tried practicing knife grappling w/a live bladee was back in high school (coming up on 40 years ago) when I was young and very stupid. As expected, each time we worked it one of us got cut. And yet we continued. Yep, young and stupid. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:56:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Ruel Apostol To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] THE 3rd MONTHLY FMA PICNIC/GATHERING Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net THE 3rd MONTHLY FMA PICNIC/GATHERING September 11, 2005 There will be another fun gig on September 11, (Sunday). There will be another picnic/gathering at the same venue, UP Lagoon, starting at lunchtime onwards. This would be the 3rd time that such a gathering has been put up. As usual, some Martial Arts friends of other styles will be coming over and if they will, upon our request, will demo their system. Bringing your own baon and snacks for yourself or to share will be welcomed but optional. You can invite and bring your friends and family too. Since it is still rainy season, pray it doesn't rain. As usual, you may bring your "toys". Directions: >From Philcoa (Quezon Circle corner Commonwealth Avenue) , go to UP Diliman. You will see the building that has the UP Oblation (Naked guy) in front. That's the admin building. If you're facing the admin bldg (you are facing the oblation), walk up the steps, and through the building, until you're at the back of the building. Walk down the steps behind the building where there is a small field. Contunue in the same direction, walking across that field. At the end of the field there is an exit way. There you will find a monument (ladies sewing the Philippine Flag). Keep walking past that still in the same direction. Ahead of you and to your left is the Lagoon. Non-FMA demos are also welcome! For more info, call or text 09206297393 or 09198641381. See you! It's FREE!!! www.unitedprimebuilders.com learn a filipino martial art and be proud of it: www.academialsa.littlebadboy.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:24:18 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Reacting to Danger. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net wear blinkers, seems to have worked! ; ) but if i had a penny for each time i had asked if i could have done something else then id be a rich man! Glad to hear that you can still say it though! > Still, it was scary, and I've been asking myself if there was something I > could have done beyond calling the cops afterwards, which I did. I don't > like that I froze up. : / Does anyone have any input, advice...? > -- iPat if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the unknown, that which is spontaneous. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest