Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:53:59 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #313 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Reacting to Danger. (WoodyTX) 2. Grappling and ol Red Dog (Nat Nickele) 3. "That's a gun there" (Khalkee@netscape.net) 4. Modern Arnis seminar, Burbank CA - Sunday, Oct 2 (em@mooned.org) 5. re: late to the party (Marc MacYoung) 6. Placido Yambao book (BillyJa695@aol.com) 7. RE: Grabbing the Knife Arm (Absolom Jones) 8. Re: knife grappling (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:19:15 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Reacting to Danger. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 0-60 in how many seconds? :-) You got surprised, and probably ground some mental gears trying to shift without a clutch. Don't let it faze you; everybody gets caught flat-footed from time to time. Just be thankful it didn't amout to anything. Advice? Try to stay in "Condition Yellow" as much as possible, especially in a city with the window down. Specific to the situation (knowing that hindsight is 20-20)? Grab the gun or the arm and point it somewhere relatively safe. If the gun entered the car, you've got far more leverage in that situation than he has. If it's just pointed in the window, a smile and "we don't want any problems" attitude goes a long way. WoodyTX On 9/8/05, A. Van Meter wrote: > Howdy list members. I could use some advice from you all. > The other day, I was in the passenger seat of a car, getting a ride to an > event. While stopped at a light, a man ran up to the car, and stuck a gun in > through the window (I hate that the best description I have for him is, > 'crazy old black guy', but seriously, that's the best I have). Now it's not > the first time I've been held at gun point, but still all I could do was > think, "Hey, that's a gun there." > Nothing came of it - the driver just drove off a second later when the > light was green, and it turns out she never saw the gun at all. She asked, > 'What did he want?' > Still, it was scary, and I've been asking myself if there was something I > could have done beyond calling the cops afterwards, which I did. I don't > like that I froze up. : / Does anyone have any input, advice...? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:53:56 -0700 From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey all, FWIW, I have quite a bit of experience with grappling with someone who is trying to stab you. I worked in the mental health field for several years and have had MANY MANY occasions where my consumers tried to show their gratitude to me by trying to send me to heaven by way of blood loss. Granted, you tend to be about 20% on guard all the time with this population, but they did tend to attack out of the blue sometimes. Now, I found that having good verbal de-escalation skills was the best and most effective way to get out of most sticky situations (Actually I had the lowest "physical intervention" rate for several years.); however, this is not a thread about the benefits of talking. Also, running away was not an option because often the person was intent on hurting anyone in the vicinity, including himself -- guess who's job it was to stop them? (also, we were forbidden to hit, gouge, kick, joint-lock, etc; only "control") The first time someone tried to stab me, I did freeze a bit. Luckily, they were yelling and threatening me first, so I was switched on and ready. After a while, being attack became so normal that staff would hardly change expression or pulse rate. Most times when I was involved in grappling with someone with a knife (never a knife, in the literal sense, but shivs of different machinations or glass shards or something), I ended up with several other staff assisting me after 2-3 minutes. Many times though, I had to go from start to finish by myself. These are the things I learned: 1) As soon as you see the weapon, ATTACK EXPLOSIVELY - do not give them time to prepare. I have ended fights before the other guy knew that it had begun. 2) The art of the sucker-attack - this should be the first attack that is taught in self defense. I would throw keys, flick my shoe up, etc, into their visual field (occasionally at them), and then rush in when their eyes involuntarily followed. Another variation was I would attack while I or the patient was in mid sentence. I learned that one from a Peyton Quinn video. 3) Control the weapon - I know someone is going to say, "What if you are focused on one, and he pulls out another..." Seriously, while that could happen, it never did to me (thank God), and I feel that it is important to give the knife you know about the attention it deserves. I would either pin the weapon arm or strip and throw the weapon ASAP. Yes I got punched, kicked, and bitten while subduing the weapon, but i never got stabbed (badly). 4) Watch out for other people. - On more than one occasion, I was grappling with a client, and one of his peers would try to assist him, steal the knife, or "assist" me by getting their kicks in while I was holding down his peer. I would opt to use lots of yelling to try and stall person #2, and get up as soon as possible to reset the attack, or retreat to a more advantageous position. These situations scared me the most because I couldn't always get up in time to defend against person #2. Luckily they never took the knife and then attack me with it; I might have been killed. I did eat alot of boot on a few occasions though. 5) Maintain emotional composure. - Yell when you gotta yell, but I found it highly effective to not talk at all. I have found that attackers psyc themselves up with language. Too many times I have witnessed staff giving patients a second wind by staff trash talking or responding to trash talking. When you say nothing, it is less fuel for their fire. Sometimes silence intimidates them. 6) Don't act like a bad ass - Outside of the fight (normal life), don't act like a sniveling weeny, but don't walk around like your looking for a fight. I had the reputation at work, among the patients, for being a nice, thoughtful, and gentle guy - that you don't want to mess with. If they asked me what I would do if they (insert threat here), I would respond non-challantly that I would respond to them physically without hesitation; no ego response; no threatening tone, just matter of fact. If they said that I couldn't take them, I would just say something that didn't escalate it like, "yeah, maybe. Hope we don't ever have to find out." My rep did two things: It made people less switched on around me; and it gave me an emotional and psychological edge when I went from nice guy to animal offense suddenly. so that's my 2 cents. I don't know how well it crosses over to a bar fight, but it worked well for me in my environment. -Nat --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:20:53 -0400 From: Khalkee@netscape.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] "That's a gun there" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > (I hate that the best description I have for him is, >'crazy old black guy', but seriously, that's the best I have). Uh, isn't the critical factor here that there was an assailant with a gun? Would it be any different if it were an intelligent young black guy? How about a crazy young white guy . . . or a well-adjusted middle-aged yellow guy?:-) >the first time I've been held at gun point, but still all I could do was >think, "Hey, that's a gun there." There ya go. > Does anyone have any input, advice...? Tell the driver to immediately "bust a move" in whatever "getaway" direction she could, explain it to the cops later if necessary. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:26:48 -0400 From: em@mooned.org To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Modern Arnis seminar, Burbank CA - Sunday, Oct 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net FYI, I'm posting this for a friend: SPECIAL SEMINAR KNIFE AND STICK By Master Prof. Danny Anderson 8th Dan Senior Master "Modern Arnis" Founder, M-80 System of Modern Arnis One of the longest continuously training students of Grand Master Remy A. Presas ? Over 25 Years October 2, 2005 SUNDAY AT AIKIDO DAIWA SCHOOL 4404 WEST VICTORY BLVD. BURBANK, CA (818) 843-4984 Two classes from 12 Noon to 2 PM Modern Arnis (Stick and Empty Hands) 2:30 PM to 4:30 PM Gunting Modular Blade Craft $70.00 at the door $60.00 Advance sign-up by Sept. 20th Bring any 4 persons from same school and the fifth one is free. Limited Space, so please call now to reserve your space: Contact Toma at Daiwa School (818) 843-4984 or E-mail me at TomaWallAikido@earthlink.net PayPal Accepted Bring your sticks and a Training Knife Come and learn from a Master Instructor All who pre-register get a 20% coupon for Valley Martial Arts Store --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 11:06:13 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: late to the party Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Marc Denny" > What I am not getting is this resistance to knife grappling. SNIP > Many/most > ambushes involve grabbing the intended deceased, see e.g. Don Pentecost's > "Folsom Prison knfie fighting techniques". Is this not grappling? Yeah, here's the problem though, it's him doing it. His grabbing you brings you into his strongest/most effective range and keeps you there until he is done killing you. See why I have problems about willfully going into the same range? Especially with sports techniques? At the same time -- and closely related -- many people will interpret a discussion about "Grappling with a knife" as "Hey I screwed up, better go into grappling range" instead of the more pragmatic "YIKES! I better fight my way out of this range!" We can also add the issue of time. How long do you want to stay there? Again with any discussion assume a number of bloodyminded people are going to decide that until you have done 1,2,3 you can't move out of that range. (Don't laugh, I've seen people so intent on acheiving 1 that they fail to do 2 or 3, much less move out of range). How important is this? Well, in comparison to most MA I have seen in the US, FMA really emphasizes footwork WAY more than most. However, one of the most consistent criticisms I have heard from old time FMA players (especially those who have survived blade encounters) is that movement and footwork is NOT emphasized enough in what is being taught. Now ain't that a kick in the pants? And if Americanized FMA -- which is far more mobile than most other MA -- isn't moving enough for these old timers, what do you think they'd think about the mobility of those other systems? A BIG problem I encounter in teaching people is that instead of performing a move while moving, they "dig in" and try to perform the technique. Problem with that, is that they are now sitting ducks. The best analogy I can come up with to all of this is tailgating. You don't want to get on someone's bumper and ride it doing 70 on the freeway. The longer you stay there the more likely something is to go sideways -- including the guy you're tailing slamming on his brakes. What you can do, however, is while changing lanes, knowing that it's dangerous, but doing it anyway, is control how long you do it. From another lane, drop in close behind someone and then keep going into the next lane over. This means you're only tailgating the guy for a couple of seconds before you are out of danger and into another lane. It's risky, but it's a controlled and calculated risk that only lasts a second. You don't stay there. So the answer to the question "why the resistance?" is "It has not been defined in the terms of what you need to do to get out of that range/position/location." And while I'm sure there's going to be a chorus of "Well that's what I meant" and "Well, yeah that's obvious." Until you sit down and state it in those terms, a majority of the people are going to define the word "grappling" according to their training. And that will turn them into sitting ducks because they didn't move over to the next lane, but are instead sitting on this other guy's bumper. Or in this case, they've moved into the knifer's strongest range and set up house. > Please understand that I am not talking about BJJ/MMA type grappling, > (which > may be an unspoken assumption here on the part of the anti-grappling > position?) but rather Kali Silat. Bingo...you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone knows what something means until there is a problem. People are using the word grappling thinking that they know what it means. And they do, to them. What they are failing to understand is what it means to other people. Thing is, if you go to the dictonary you find the definitions listed in popularity of use. When you use the word, you may mean definition 5, but most people mean definition 1. A major reason why I get people pissed off at me is often when I talk about something I am referring to how the majority of people use the term...which in this case IS BJJ/MMA. Not the exception like they do it in their isolated neck of the woods. BJJ/MMA/Sports type grappling is very much a death sentence when it comes to facing a knife. Not because it is ineffective (for what it is designed for it is extremely effective) but because it is not designed for these circumstances. In short, when I talk about grappling, I am talking the rule, not the exception. And that'll get you killed if you try it against a knife. My post regarding distance and reach, explains why. Think about it, how many people are trained to grapple out of grappling? Because that's what you have to do to stay alive. M --__--__-- Message: 6 From: BillyJa695@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:15:44 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Placido Yambao book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Where is the Placido Yambao book available ? I'd like to know and any information would be appreciated. Thanks, Brian Johns Columbus, Ohio In a message dated 9/4/05 1:40:14 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Hi Kit, > > >Classic Arnis:The Legacy of Placido Yambao-Reynalodo S. Galang 2004< > >   Yep, bought that one recently too! I must revise my list. There have been > loads of books published since I originally typed up that list :-) --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Absolom Jones" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:41:33 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Grabbing the Knife Arm Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:43:46 +0100 >From: iPat >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Grabbing The Knife Arm >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >We train all the possibilities, moving from the wrist to the elbow >control. The intention i suppose is to be fluid and be able to move >from one to another as it seems to be fit at the moment in time. The >drill might start when they attempt to draw or from a drawn blade. > >On 9/7/05, al sardinas wrote: > > > > If you are going to grab, I recommend going for the wrist and not the >arm. > > Better control! > >-- >iPat >if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the >unknown, that which is spontaneous. > >-- __--__-- I would suggest that going to the knife hand, preferably the back of the hand would be the best position to control the knife and stop rotational cutting by the assailant. Holding the eblow forearm and wrist all fail to fully stop the ability to twirl the blade and cut with it. Holding across the back of the kinife hand impedes if not eliminates the twirling possibilities. Absolom --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:53:57 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: knife grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > So, there are degrees of defense. And at this point > in my training, I am thinking that an alert person > going 40 MPH (thanks animal) may have ONE chance to > trap, lock, disarm the trained attacker, and still > faces a chance of being fatally wounded in the > process. > So how do we improve the odds? > Ray Purdy > Is there a solution to the problem? Or at least a partial or imperfect > solution? > Pat Kelly Okay before I say this let me point out two very important things. First off, I gave up calling myself a martial artist because of the politics, BS and overall pissing contests between styles. These days I refer to myself as a martial analyst. My concern isn't about technique or how you achieve something, it is that "standards of effectiveness are met."My big question these days is: WHAT has to be present in ANY solution in order for it to work? I don't care what style you use, what technique you use or the details of the situation, I'm talking the criteria that must be met for effectiveness. What often happens is that people get so caught up in stylistic details that they fail to meet these basic criteria's. When that happens they fail. It isn't the systems fault. It isn't their fault. It's an ugly combination of both that resulted in not getting the job done -- often because they didn't know the need to meet these standards. Or they figured the technique would do it for them. I don't care how you do it, but meeting the standards of effective movement is literally a life and death issue. Unfortunately, many people get too caught up in the details of "how" these standards must be met and in doing so never meet the standards. Technique is nothing more than a way to achieve these standards, it is NOT a guarantee that you will. Keep that in mind because it scuttles a lot of the MA politics and BS over which style is better to where it belongs. Namely the bottom of the septic tank. Second. Although I have twice survived "grappling" with a knifer I am NOT promoting my system as HOW to do it. I am not saying "hey everyone, come study with me to learn my unbeatable system" (Which is a very common behavior in the MA world. And one that anytime I call bullsh*t on a concept I am immediately accused of doing). Nor am I saying I am the ultimate expert on this issue and everyone else is wrong (which again, lots of people do and I get accused of a lot). I don't give a damn if you never buy a book from me or a video either, because quite frankly the information I am about to give you isn't so succinctly put in any of my other writings. How you meet these standards are ENTIRELY up to you. Your challenge is to figure out how to apply them to what you know. What I will say however, is that I am alive because in both of those incidents where I grappled with a knife, I met these underlying standards. So while I am not promoting MY system, what I can tell you is that YOUR system will work a whole lot better to keep you from getting a sucking chest wound if you figure out how to apply these standards to what you do. Maybe that means you tweak your system for some circumstances, maybe that means you drop it like an annoyed scorpion in others, personally I don't care. What is important is one way or the other you meet these standards if you find yourself in a CQC situation with a blade. 1) Get behind his elbow (or put something behind it so his arm loses free movement) 2) Get out of his line of fire (i.e. MOVE!) 3) Check his mobility (e.g. get him off his feet before he can reorient on you) 4) End his ability to attack you. These standards get you out, and keep you out, of HIS grappling range -- where his superior weapon will win. I don't care how you achieve these goals, but I can tell you that when I found myself in close quarters with a knifer. These four standards are what saved my ass. I have seen these standards met in many different ways, from Aikido, Danzan Ryu, silat, FMA and kuntao. Each do it their own way. (That's what the i.e's and e.g's are, they are examples of achieving these standards). Now here's the kicker, different attacks, different circumstances, different positions require you achieve these standards in different ways. Which is why this answer is not technique specific, but rather goal specific. Once again let me stress, don't get so caught up in the technique that you fail to achieve the goal. Often this happens because a specific technique is inappropriate for the circumstances. If it ain't working, drop it like that pissed off scorpion and do what you have to do to achieve these standards. In other words, "Don't force the technique." Instead do what is appropriate for the circumstances. M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest