Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 03:00:50 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #314 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Knife Grappling (Afern27@aol.com) 2. Placido Yambao Book (JKLK) 3. Re: Re: [Eskrima] Grabbing The Knife Arm (Al Sardinas) 4. Re:Grappling and ol Red Dog (Marc MacYoung) 5. Knife grappling part three (Marc Denny) 6. Part 3 PS (Marc Denny) 7. RE: Placido Yambao book (billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk) 8. knife grappling (I F) 9. Re: knife grappling (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 19:32:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Knife Grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Karl Tanswell's STAB program is one of the better ones I have seen for defending unarmed against the knife. And it is heavily based on Greco-Roman wrestling, particularly Greco's tie ups and the clinch. I have also heard good things about Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone, which apparently also takes a similar grappling-heavy approach towards handling a knife attacker. Just wanted to bring these guys up because they both pressure test their stuff against live, resisting partners, and are both good examples of people who are having success with a supposedly ineffective methodology (i.e. using grappling against a blade.) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 20:01:18 -0400 From: "JKLK" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Placido Yambao Book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Brian, You can check out the Bakbakan International website. http://www.bakbakan.com/ Master Rey Galang is the author. Good read. Paz, Jim Kinney Woodbridge, NJ Where is the Placido Yambao book available ? I'd like to know and any information would be appreciated. Thanks, Brian Johns Columbus, Ohio --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Subject: Re: Re: [Eskrima] Grabbing The Knife Arm Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 20:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Absolom, you make a good point about the back of the knife hand and Mr. Davies is correct about training all the possibilities for control. It is just my contention that at least in a stand up, face to face confrontation, the first (safe) point of contact for control should be the wrist then one can make a transition to the back of the hand and/or to the elbow or any other part of the body. Also, for the sake of efficiency, one hand control can be accomplished in the transition from the wrist to the back of the hand but two hands would be required for the elbow, etc. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of The Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 21:18:10 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Grappling and ol Red Dog Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: Nat Nickele . > These are the things I learned: > 1) As soon as you see the weapon, ATTACK EXPLOSIVELY . > 2) The art of the sucker-attack > 3) Control the weapon - > 4) Watch out for other people. > 5) Maintain emotional composure. - > 6) Don't act like a bad ass - Well said sir, well said. M --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:13:57 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife grappling part three Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Thank you Animal/Marc for your response to my questions. >> From: "Marc Denny" >> What I am not getting is this resistance to knife grappling. , , >> ,Many/most >> ambushes involve grabbing the intended deceased, see e.g. Don Pentecost's >> "Folsom Prison knfie fighting techniques". Is this not grappling? > > Yeah, here's the problem though, it's him doing it. Durn tootin' its a problem! So why not have skills with which to respond? Even in MMA we see that escaping grappling can be a problem and IMHO it may well be harder yet when the adversary is an angry hairless chimpanzee in a killing frenzy. Yes? > His grabbing you brings you into his strongest/most effective range and > keeps you there until he is done killing you. See why I have problems > about > willfully going into the same range? As previously mentioned, I follow the Inosanto decision grid: run away, throw things, use things, try this stuff and may the Force be with you 'cause you're going to need it. Thus knife grappling for me is when I am already at the fourth of these. Also to be noted, (as I define things anyway) sometimes one needs to step forward to protect others. I also submit the proposition that sometimes backing up just keeps you in his preferred range. Yes? I know that in stickfighting it often works this way when my opponent backs up-- I just keep whacking him. Or the environment may make this difficult. Yes? > Especially with sports techniques? AGREE 100%. Its why I look at this issue from the perspective of Kali Silat. > At the same time -- and closely related -- many people will interpret a > discussion about "Grappling with a knife" as "Hey I screwed up, better go > into grappling range" instead of the more pragmatic "YIKES! I better fight > my way out of this range!" Sometimes yes and sometimes no. If I have a good shot at controlling the knife limb, I may well be better off at staying in and doing so, seeking receiver grips, captures or disarms. Yes? > We can also add the issue of time. How long do you want to stay there? > Again > with any discussion assume a number of bloodyminded people are going to > decide that until you have done 1,2,3 you can't move out of that range. > (Don't laugh, I've seen people so intent on acheiving 1 that they fail to > do > 2 or 3, much less move out of range). Help me understand here. Are you talking about going on a striking rampage causing him to cease slicing and dicing so that you can open the range? And what do you do once you open range? Certainly run away if that is an option but what if the environment is unfavorable or he is simply is faster than you? How important is this? Well, in > comparison to most MA I have seen in the US, FMA really emphasizes > footwork > WAY more than most. However, one of the most consistent criticisms I have > heard from old time FMA players (especially those who have survived blade > encounters) is that movement and footwork is NOT emphasized enough in what > is being taught. Now ain't that a kick in the pants? And if Americanized > FMA -- which is far more mobile than most other MA -- isn't moving enough > for these old timers, what do you think they'd think about the mobility of > those other systems? A BIG problem I encounter in teaching people is that > instead of performing a move while moving, they "dig in" and try to > perform > the technique. Problem with that, is that they are now sitting ducks. Your preaching to the choir on this one. AMEN! The coordination of weapons and footwork is a major theme in DBMA, witness e.g. our DVD "Combining Stick and Footwork" (available at www.dogbrothers.com btw ;-) ) or see the role of footwork in our "Kali Tudo (r)" in my article at http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=597&start=0 > , , , > So the answer to the question "why the resistance?" is "It has not been > defined in the terms of what you need to do to get out of that > range/position/location." > > And while I'm sure there's going to be a chorus of "Well that's what I > meant" and "Well, yeah that's obvious." Until you sit down and state it in > those terms, a majority of the people are going to define the word > "grappling" according to their training. And that will turn them into > sitting ducks because they didn't move over to the next lane, but are > instead sitting on this other guy's bumper. Or in this case, they've moved > into the knifer's strongest range and set up house. If you cannot depart the scene and do not have time to pick up things to throw or use, what do YOU do? In vigorous play with friends (including prison guards familiar with criminal knife tactics and techniques) my idea is that there are ways to frame the crash so as to set up receiver grips, captures or disarms. >> Please understand that I am not talking about BJJ/MMA type grappling, >> (which may be an unspoken assumption here on the part of the >> anti-grappling >> position?) but rather Kali Silat. > > Bingo...you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone knows what something > means until there is a problem. People are using the word grappling > thinking > that they know what it means. And they do, to them. What they are failing > to > understand is what it means to other people. Thing is, if you go to the > dictonary you find the definitions listed in popularity of use. When you > use > the word, you may mean definition 5, but most people mean definition 1. Which is why I specified my definition :-) > A major reason why I get people pissed off at me is often when I talk > about > something I am referring to how the majority of people use the > term...which > in this case IS BJJ/MMA. Not the exception like they do it in their > isolated > neck of the woods. Is Kali Silat an exception here on the ED? Or is the ED an isolated neck of the woods? :-) More seriously now, would it be more effective communication to specify that you are talking about BJJ/MMA type grappling? BJJ/MMA/Sports type grappling is very much a death > sentence when it comes to facing a knife. Not because it is ineffective > (for > what it is designed for it is extremely effective) but because it is not > designed for these circumstances. In short, when I talk about grappling, I > am talking the rule, not the exception. And that'll get you killed if you > try it against a knife. My post regarding distance and reach, explains > why. > Think about it, how many people are trained to grapple out of grappling? Actually it is very much part of the DBMA curriculum, even in our Kali Tudo. Grappling positions are always examined in terms of "exit-ability" and high preference is given to those which allow for good 1x1 results while maintaining exitability. Many MMA guys train how to get from guard to standing in striking range using the "hip heist"-- not applicable to knife certainly, but responsive to your question as asked. > Because that's what you have to do to stay alive. I look forward to your response. The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog PS: You have email --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:18:14 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Part 3 PS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc: Just saw your second post on the previous episode of ED and it answers some of my questions. The response I just sent in a few seconds ago should have been titled "Late to the party, part 3" Sorry for the confusion. Crafty --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:55:23 +0100 From: billlowery@tinyonline.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Placido Yambao book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi BillyJa695, I bought mine via Waterstones (UK retailer). Bill __________________________________________________________________ 1Mb Tiscali Broadband for £14.99. Offer ends 30th June 2005 http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "I F" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:17:28 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] knife grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Karl Tanswell's STAB program seems to be quite effective in regards to standup grappling with a knife. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife grappling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There is a plenty of footage floating around of prison knife fights. As in 90%+ of the cases a knife fight is not the best term to use, it should be knife attack. Training to fight knife on knife is perhaps fun, but not all that useful. A better use of your time is to train empty hand against a surprise knife attack. Things to do... Block the incoming attack (if possible), control the blade, continue controlling the blade. If you get a chance, take out his "computer", his ability to think, see, react and respond, BUT control the blade all the while. What you see in most of this prison footage is that the person being attacked focuses first on taking out the other guys computer. While he is getting stabbed stabbed stabbed, he is punching the guy (often with heavy impact) in the head. In the heat of the moment these strikes have a delayed effect, all the while the attackee has now received multiple stab wounds usually resulting in death. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest