Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:07:43 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #315 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Knife Grappling (iPat) 2. Re: Re: [Eskrima] Grabbing The Knife Arm (iPat) 3. Re: knife grappling (Dave Wong) 4. Re: registering as a lethal weapon (Felipe Jocano) 5. Reacting to Danger (buz_ed_alias@mac.com) 6. Knife grappling part three (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:42:41 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Knife Grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net He was a Rick Faye student in his early days although. Faye was also Paulsons early instructor and Paulsons wrist, elbow and clinchwork drills also mirror Inosantos control of a drawn and undrawn weapon. The drills come from different arts yet still mirror the basic functionality and simple truth in this area. The material is there, its the manner in which you train it that counts (which isnt in dispute with Afern27) On 9/9/05, Afern27@aol.com wrote: > Karl Tanswell's STAB program is one of the better ones I have seen for > defending unarmed against the knife. And it is heavily based on Greco-Roman > wrestling, particularly Greco's tie ups and the clinch. -- iPat if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the unknown, that which is spontaneous. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:49:28 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: Re: [Eskrima] Grabbing The Knife Arm Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You may need to clarify your thinking here Al, i may be missing your point. A double grab is not necessarily a must, as it will leave you open to a strike from elsewhere in certain positions, and while ive zoned and 'trapped' the elbow, i see this moment as a moment that opens a window of opportunity, whether that be an eye strike, a drawing of my own weapon, a lever of the jaw for takedown. A double grab and pushing the arm back into its joint to off balance the body in orderto take advantage is of course a possibility but i see this position as transitory On 9/10/05, Al Sardinas wrote: Also, for the sake of efficiency, one hand control can be > accomplished in the transition from the wrist to the back of the hand but two > hands would be required for the elbow, etc. -- iPat if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the unknown, that which is spontaneous. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:50:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Wong Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife grappling To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net --- Ray wrote: > There is a plenty of footage floating around of > prison knife fights. > [snip] Care to show the way to some of the footage? Dave ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:22:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] registering as a lethal weapon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And who gets the girl in the end, eh? :-) Bot --- WoodyTX wrote: > But anyone who's watched a martial arts movie knows > that the most > dangerous person in the world is a harmless-looking > Asian... :-P > > Woody > > > On 9/6/05, Felipe Jocano > wrote: > > (snip) > > > ....Me I'd rather be harmless :-) > > > > Bot > > Philippines also :-) > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: buz_ed_alias@mac.com Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:25:27 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Reacting to Danger Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've been dealing with the onset of a new semester and so have been delayed in posting a reply. I've stared down the barrel of a gun several times and have always second guessed my reactions. Think the instance that still bothers me the most occurred almost 20 years ago when I was working as a third shift cashier at a grocery. It was around 4:00 a.m., I was sitting up in the little, raised, cashier's office most supermarkets have taking a break when I heard the front door of the store slide open. I looked up from the magazine I was reading, saw some guy coming in the store with what looked like a t-shirt with eye holes cut in it wrapped around his face, thought "what kind of frat boy crap is this" (the incident occurred in a large college town where one sort or another of late night hijinks was always going on), and then noticed his extended arm held some metal device with a hole in the end pointed straight at my head. The little light bulb went off: hey, that's a gun. The fellow started yelling the standard "give me the money, mofo" stuff. I left the office and went over to the register. He followed me over, yelling nasty stuff all the while. I had to punch in a four digit code to make the register open, and of course entered the wrong number. The gent started yelling more threatening stuff about what was going to happen if I didn't get the register open. I got kinda pissed and said something like "you try doing this while someone is yelling and waving a gun." The dude seemed taken aback, stopped yelling, and I got the register open. I pulled the bills out of the register and tossed them on the counter. The gent started scooping 'em up and said "where's the rest?" I'd emptied the drawer except for change and checks, and so asked if he wanted them, too, while pulling out the drawer and putting it down in front of him on the counter. Figured out after the fact that I'd been scouted earlier in the evening by an accomplice who had made a small purchase and paid with a $50 bill; the gent was looking to recover the $50. Had a bit of an epiphany right about here. The bad guy was steadying the cash drawer on the counter with his right hand, the hand that was holding the gun, while his left was picking up cash and looking for the $50 in the drawer (it was in among the checks). He was bent down, I clearly remember looking at the vertebrae on the back of his neck as my right hand brushed against the 18 inch steel pipe I had along side the register and used as a drunk thumper. It would have been no problem at all to put my left hand on his right shoulder, trapping him against the counter, while grabbing the pipe with my right and turning his hypothalamus to jelly. As the instant for action arose, I remember feeling sorry for the guy and knew on some level I can't explain that the money he was going to make off with wasn't worth the burden I'd have to bear if I caved in his skull. The moment passed, the guy didn't find the $50, stuffed what he did have into a pocket, and turned to run from the store. He tried to run out the same door he came in, the "in" door, it didn't open and so he crashed against the glass. By this time a couple guys on the stock crew saw that something was going on and had moved toward the front of the store. The bad guy collected himself (I remember stifling a laugh), waved his gun at all of us again, then dashed out the "out" door. I snagged the phone, called 911, and various bits of fun ensued from there. For the most part I think I played it right back then; suspect the last 20 years would have been a lot different if I had stove some guys head in back in my mid-20s. Still, I can't help wondering if my failure to act lead to greater evil down the road, evil I could have prevented. These days, moreover, my guess is that if confronted with a similar situation I'd go ahead and crack a skull, or, more likely, put two hollowpoints in the center of mass. Back in my existential youth I was pretty sure I wasn't going to make it to age 35; it was kinda hard to get worked up about the future when convinced you don't have one. Nowadays, with fatherhood having reared its head, not only am I going to do whatever I can to make sure I make it home to my kids at the end of the day, I'm going to make sure no other innocent I'm around has their future impacted by some homegrown socialist redistributing wealth. Still can't hope wondering, though, what the bad guy got into after I stared at the nape of his neck. Hope he's encountered an epiphany or two of his own since then, and passed the slack I cut him on. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:57:29 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife grappling part three Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net regarding a knifer closing with you I said... >> Yeah, here's the problem though, it's him doing it. Marc Denny said > Durn tootin' its a problem! So why not have skills with which to respond? > Even in MMA we see that escaping grappling can be a problem and IMHO it > may > well be harder yet when the adversary is an angry hairless chimpanzee in a > killing frenzy. Yes? To begin with I never said that not having the skillsets to get the hell out of Dodge is not necessary. It is beau coup necessary. The $64,000 question is what are those skillsets? And, can they be found in the common definition of grappling? AND If we really wanted to get philosophical can we rightfully call fighting your way out of a grappling situation grappling? Or is it a subset of grappling? Or does one giant, generic term mean everything? (e.g. when we use the term grappling we mean a) submission fighting, b) sports fighting, c) chokeholds and neck breaks d) fighting out of a grapple e) traditional martial arts f) streetfighting, g)knife fighting and h) the UFC?) If so then that's a lot of territory for one small word. But, I regularly have seen people use the term "grappling" as such a massive catch phrase. So which parts of this giant umbrella term do we mean when talk about grappling with a knife? Or doesn't that matter because if you know grappling you know them all? And somehow - dare I say magically --when talking about "grappling with a knife" everyone is automatically going to know about what specific parts you mean? Call me a skeptic, but I don't think it works that way. > As previously mentioned, I follow the Inosanto decision grid: run away, > throw things, use things, try this stuff and may the Force be with you > 'cause you're going to need it. Yeeha and Amen on that. Mobility, distance and deploying superior weapons are your bestest buddies when it comes to dealing with most knife situations. Here's the kicker, just because you find yourself unexepectedly in a clinch with a knifer DOESN'T mean you don't use a variation of those. In fact, it is arguable that certain fundamentals become MORE important at that range. For example, mobility. You mention later in your post that I am preaching to the choir about the mobility. Here's my point, in a knife clinch situation, mobility becomes even more important (both yours and his). So instead of it being a "yeah, I'll get around to it" issue, getting out of his line of fire becomes a priority. One that your survival pretty much depends on. The big challenge here though is how do you achieve it in CQC? And can you... will you... achieve it in the same way? In my experience no. In the safety of the training hall, you have to experiement with it and figure how to tweak it in so it can work in those different conditions. If you don't people tend to just drop it because they don't know how to make it work elsewhere. And doing that, in a clinch with a knifer, is not good. Not good at all. With that in mind, how many people do you think would try to grab the knife hand -- and in doing so sacrifice thier mobility? As opposed to "Oh hey, let me deflect, counter, stall, control this weapon arm so it can't come back at me again" while moving out of the way? Which one do you think would work better in an unexpected clinch with a knifer? It's hard to effectively grab a fast moving wrist -- especially if you too are moving. So most people attempt to do it from a stationary position. Which violates the MOVE rule. At your next seminar have folks do it (especially people you haven't trained) and see how often they take a rooted stance while trying to grab the knife wrist. Then see how much better they do batting it away while moving away from the knife (and in different directions). Your mobility is already limited by his grabbing you, why help him by standing still? Which is what most people will do while trying to "Grab the knife hand" Sure, stall, deflect, block, grab, whatever the knife hand AS you're scooting somewhere else. But don't make it a case of "do this first" because most people will never get past step one. >Thus knife grappling for me is when I am > already at the fourth of these. Also to be noted, (as I define things > anyway) sometimes one needs to step forward to protect others. Yeppers, and when it your job to run forward when everyone else runs away, you really gotta think about ways to survive. Which really means you need to look at how to achieve mobility and distance in cramped space, while making sure his goes down the toliet. > I also submit the proposition that sometimes backing up just keeps you in > his preferred range. Yes? I know that in stickfighting it often works > this > way when my opponent backs up-- I just keep whacking him. Oh hell, yes. Human beings are oriented on the 90s. Simply backing up doesn't get you off his line of orientation. He just keeps on attacking. Shifting off his line of orientation requires him to stall his attack for a split second while he reorients on you. That gives you breathing space. Obviously with well trained individuals who use subtle angles the breathing space ain't going to be as large, but we're talking the majority here, not the exception. The use of subtle angles however, is a complex game unto itself, which allows for all kinds of fun and neat stuff -- especially because it plays with the heads of people who don't know subtle angles oh so well... Or the > environment may make this difficult. Yes? Okay, here's where I'm going to fall back on my Wing Chun training. There is an old adage that a good Wing Chun player can do his entire form on an end table. Which is really an important concept because it shows exactly how much mobility there still is in cramped quarters. I cannot begin to tell you the number of people who I have taught who think of mobility in a matter of feet instead of inches. When they find themselves in cramped situations, their use of mobility goes out the window. It's as though they say, "I can't move so I must rely entirely on a block" instead of moving as much as they can while deflecting. Remember, in CQC mobility becomes even more important. AND, this goes double for your ability to effect his mobility and orientation. There's lots more room to move in close than most people think. And once you know that, you also realize the importance of making sure the knifer loses as much of his mobility as possible. >> Especially with sports techniques? > > AGREE 100%. Its why I look at this issue from the perspective of Kali > Silat. Which I commend you for specifically qualifying. The thing is if you say Hari mau, Serak or Chimande you are talking about some seriously non-sports oriented moves. Moves that are so unique that even though they are committed at an incredibly close range I'm not sure they'd easily fit within the common definition of "grappling" -- especially submission fighting. But wasn't the original question about how much do traditional FMA advocate (and train for) grappling with a knife? Then when it was shown that isn't really the case, the discussion went towards "okay, then how do you grapple with a knife." Not "how does silat grapple against a blade" (Although I'd be curious how Hari mau recommends handling these circumstances). Although from what I learned from Serak and Chimande, I'd say throwing would be more an accurate term than grappling. My point is now and alway has been that you need to put an end to it ASAP. And an overwhelming amount of what is taught AS grappling fails to do that. >> At the same time -- and closely related -- many people will interpret a >> discussion about "Grappling with a knife" as "Hey I screwed up, better go >> into grappling range" instead of the more pragmatic "YIKES! I better >> fight >> my way out of this range!" > > Sometimes yes and sometimes no. If I have a good shot at controlling the > knife limb, I may well be better off at staying in and doing so, seeking > receiver grips, captures or disarms. Yes? With or without the four standards I laid out in my last post? In the two times I ended up "grappling" with a knifer, I will admit that I not only controlled the guys knife arm, but I did actually grab his knife hand. HOWEVER -- and more importantly -- I managed to "get behind his elbow" and thereby destroy his arm's mobility. That's the ONLY reason why the grab worked. In taking out his arm's mobility, by extension, I trashed his "distance" and "reach" which he could have used to escape my grip and stab me. He couldn't wiggle out in the time he had. In addition, in both cases, I unloaded on him a massive barrage of force immediately after stalling his arm's movement. In neither case did I ever punch the guy. I head-butted one before dragging him over (where upon four other guards piled onto him) and other guy I pinned his arm to the pool table before I proceeded to pick up, hurl and dribble him on said table -- complete with poolballs under him (which didn't do his ribs and kidneys any good). In both cases before they could move to counter my hinderance of their knife arm, they were screwed. These days, however, I have become a BIG fan of elbows coming in from odd, little angles. Those puppies screw up all kinds of things on him in one swell foop -- especially if you have hindered his mobility through deflection and movement. But that aside, in a clinch, the emphasis needs to be, not on controlling his knife arm, but destroying his ability to continue to function. The description I use is "He can't pull the trigger if you've ripped off his head" But to do that, you need to move (or move him) to a place where you can unscrew his cap. Now, let me point out here, that you CAN move into this position while hindering his knife arm. In fact, doing so makes it work all the better. I will say "Do not seek to 'control' the arm before moving into position settle for hindering it." Complete control is too difficult to achieve in a 60 mph situation. Such attempts often have the result that a person will not move until he feels he has total control of the arm... and that's a bad thing. You will find that hindering the knife arm's mobility, removing his ability to move/attack while moving out of the line of danger gets you a far better batting average -- especially because they are often synonymous. Let's use your example of >"If I have a good shot at controlling the > knife limb, I may well be better off at staying in and doing so, seeking > receiver grips, captures or disarms The key word is "may." IF you attempt the following timing -- gain control of the arm, move into position, disarm and take down -- then odds are you are going to get killed. Because during the process he still has mobility and superior distance potential and a better weapon. He's going to use them during your four step process and it's going to be rather tricky for you to stop him. Especially if you are waiting to get control of the knife arm before you do anything else (like move). If, however, AS you move into position you: avoid the knife, hinder his arm's mobility, limit his mobility, slave him to your movement, destroy his balance/structure and deliver sufficient force that he is incapable of attacking again, then odd are that you will survive with a minimum of damage. Wanna know the weird thing? In many cases, what we're talking about is still the same set of movements. But even though they are technically the same, they have radcially different mindset and application. Instead of saying one, two, three, four, we're talking ONE! The question isn't "Do I have time to do four steps?". The question is "What happens if you acheive those four steps all at once?" The key difference is that in the latter, meeting the standards I discussed are the emphasis -- not the technique. Remember how I said I have seen various Arts achieve these standards? I have also seen players of these exact same arts fail miserably to achieve these standards, using the exact same move! The style they practice doesn't matter, it's them not achieving the standards that's the problem. The people who do, succeed. The people who don't, fail. > Help me understand here. Are you talking about going on a striking > rampage > causing him to cease slicing and dicing so that you can open the range? > And > what do you do once you open range? Certainly run away if that is an > option > but what if the environment is unfavorable or he is simply is faster than > you? I think if you look at the four standards I presented you'll find the guy tends to be either unconscious, seriously mauled or broken after you've met them. Usually remaining type of problems come in one of two forms, 1) his buddies and 2) paperwork. Now one more time for the "true believers." I am not claiming that my system teaches you how to do this. Nor am I claiming that I hold the ultimate truth and only way to achieve these standards. What I am saying is take what YOU do and see if it does and/or how to tweak it so it does meet these standards. When you do this you will find what you do works a WHOLE lot better. Better yet, watch your professor/instructor/ system head or an old time player and see how he meets these standards. 'Cause if he's good, I can pretty well guarantee you that he's meeting them. > If you cannot depart the scene and do not have time to pick up things to > throw or use, what do YOU do? Well let's see, the first time I went into the bathroom and threw up. The second time we took him down to be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. (He was later committed which saved me appearing in court). The point being that only a few seconds after the incident started, it was over in my favor. See why I am such an advocate of -- however you do it -- meeting those four standards? > In vigorous play with friends (including prison guards familiar with > criminal knife tactics and techniques) my idea is that there are ways to > frame the crash so as to set up receiver grips, captures or disarms. Exactly. But you are talking about something very specific. In my book that does NOT qualify as "grappling" in the way most people use/think of the term. In fact, I'd call that more FMA terminology/thinking. See why putting something under the umbrella term "grappling" ain't a good idea? Especially because it means so many different things to so many different people. Where is the emphasis on meeting these standards? Or is it more commonly assumed that if you do this, this, this and this, you will meet these standards? No matter what form of grappling you use? > Is Kali Silat an exception here on the ED? Or is the ED an isolated neck > of > the woods? :-) More seriously now, would it be more effective > communication > to specify that you are talking about BJJ/MMA type grappling? On one hand it would have. But on the other hand, like I said I've seen players of these styles fail to meet the standards as well. So it isn't just because you do a style that guarantees you'll meet the standards. Same problem, different assumption about what guarantees success. > Actually it is very much part of the DBMA curriculum, even in our Kali > Tudo. > Grappling positions are always examined in terms of "exit-ability" and > high > preference is given to those which allow for good 1x1 results while > maintaining exitability. Letting the shameless plug pass, then all I can say is "good on you guys." Now try throwing in those four standards and see how they work for you. Many MMA guys train how to get from guard to > standing in striking range using the "hip heist"-- not applicable to knife > certainly, but responsive to your question as asked. Good point. But as you also point out, not applicable to knife...especially the part about stopping and staying in range. And MMA is very strongly influence by grappling, but not all MMA is grappling. Nor is MMA trying to stay alive against ... how did you put it? "when the adversary is an angry hairless chimpanzee in a killing frenzy." Similarities exist, but so too do differences. M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest