Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:07:55 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #317 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump (Daniel Arola) 2. Master Rey Galang UK Seminar (Peter Lewis) 3. Re: Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump (iPat) 4. Knife Grappling (ehigley@attglobal.net) 5. RE: Master Rey Galang UK Seminar (Kit Lok) 6. Knife Grappling Part 5 (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:30:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>What do the heavy hitters on this list do? >>Michael Koblic, >>Campbell River, B. C. We just HIT them HARD Daniel Arola Fayetteville, NC Michael Koblic wrote: Animal wrote (I paraphrase) "Heavy hitters are able to control their adrenaline dump". To me, this constitutes the crux of success in a confrontation, physical or otherwise, more important than physical prowess. The big question is, can you train for it? Is it given by your genes. Is it acquired by a frequent exposure to situations (or would this just make you "gun-shy" later?). Is it to do with the "unity of mind and body"? I do not mean in an esoteric martial artsy way but simply: have you any compunction about teeing off on this guy? From my limited experience the decision whether to go or not to go causes more stress and adrenaline than the actual action. Such decision also introduces vital milliseconds of hesitation with seeds of self-destruction within it. Even if one knows on an intellectual level (if , indeed, there is intellect involved) that the attack on oneself is imminent and one should pre-empt, many psychological, developmental, social and other factors say that you should not. I am not sure that confidence of the type "I can take this guy" is the answer. Sun-tzu teaches us that if we know ourselves and do not know the enemy our chances of success are about 50%. Not the odds I want to go with if my life is at stake unless something else, more important than my life, is at stake, too. What do the heavy hitters on this list do? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, B. C. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of DAMAG INC-BYFMA1.jpg] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of DAMAG INC-at the yard9-10-2005.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Peter Lewis" To: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:34:21 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Master Rey Galang UK Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All Following the success of the June event, I have now booked Master Rey Galang for a Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo seminar on 20 November 2005. This is a pre-booked only event with a cost of £50.00 per participant. Any instructor bringing six students can train free. It is hoped that this seminar will coinside with the release of Master Rey's latest book, "Masters of the Blade." If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Very best regards Peter www.yuli-romo.com www.bakbakan.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:29:56 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net not a heavy hitter, but as one who trains fighters the more fights then the more accustomised they become to this feature so they can control it. However not everyone gets to the top but that doesnt mean that they cant cope enough to survive, they dont need to be SAS/Seal. > > What do the heavy hitters on this list do? i used to have a friend who worked the doors with me. When we were counting the seconds for it to kick off we both reacted in different way. He was 4 times welterweight boxing champion with a lot of ring time that i could only envy. He would chat away, joke be on a hyped up cool. I was quiet, moving around if space afforded it, intoverted. But when the moment came it was like the reaction to the starters pistol at the 100metres for the gold medal in the olympic games. When out on the town though he was less able to restrain himself than i could, but i dont know what that means. I guess what i understand from this is that there is no one way to control that adrenaline dump, each has there own way but they find out how to do it by experience i guess. What i also learnt was that if that adrenaline dump is held too long it becomes impotent and there is a way to manage people in this state that comes from being time served -- iPat if you have any preconception of yourself, you cannot comprehend the unknown, that which is spontaneous. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: ehigley@attglobal.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:38:25 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think that this whole debate of Grappling vs. knife is being way over analyzed. I remember reading in ( LOGIC OF STEEL. A Fighter’s View of Blade and Shank Encounters. by James LaFond ) that many people in his studies that were killed with a knife were stabbed in the back with an ICE pick grip, so running from a close range may not be a good idea. My opinion is that good BJJ training could be a very helpful skill set. As antidotal evidence, a police officer in our club in Burlington VT responded to what turned out to be a knife homicide and ran in to the perpetrator on the way out on the stairwell as he was going in. The officer came by Julio Fernandez’s BJJ academy to thank him, not for teaching him some fancy moves, but for giving him the basic grappling skills to hold onto and control the bad guy and control the knife he had is his hand. Eric --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Kit Lok" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Master Rey Galang UK Seminar Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:02:48 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter Where will the Master Rey Galang UK Seminar be held? Thanks Kit http://kittomainia.blogspot.com/ >From: "Peter Lewis" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] Master Rey Galang UK Seminar >Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:34:21 +0100 > >Hi All > >Following the success of the June event, I have now booked Master Rey >Galang >for a Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo seminar on 20 November 2005. This is a >pre-booked only event with a cost of £50.00 per participant. Any >instructor >bringing six students can train free. > >It is hoped that this seminar will coinside with the release of Master >Rey's >latest book, "Masters of the Blade." > >If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. > >Very best regards > >Peter >www.yuli-romo.com >www.bakbakan.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 09:05:03 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Grappling Part 5 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof: Nice post Buz. > Still can't hope wondering, though, what the bad guy got into after I > stared at the nape of his neck. Hope he's encountered an epiphany or > two of his own since then, and passed the slack I cut him on. > > Regards, > > Buz Grover Continuing the conversation with Animal Marc , , , > The $64,000 question is what are those skillsets? And, can they be found > in > the common definition of grappling? AND If we really wanted to get > philosophical can we rightfully call fighting your way out of a grappling > situation grappling? Or is it a subset of grappling? > > Or does one giant, generic term mean everything? (e.g. when we use the > term > grappling we mean a) submission fighting, b) sports fighting, c) > chokeholds > and neck breaks d) fighting out of a grapple e) traditional martial arts > f) > streetfighting, g)knife fighting and h) the UFC?) If so then that's a lot > of > territory for one small word. But, I regularly have seen people use the > term > "grappling" as such a massive catch phrase. So which parts of this giant > umbrella term do we mean when talk about grappling with a knife? Or > doesn't > that matter because if you know grappling you know them all? And somehow - > dare I say magically --when talking about "grappling with a knife" > everyone > is automatically going to know about what specific parts you mean? > > Call me a skeptic, but I don't think it works that way. Well FWIW, my understanding is precisely that "grappling" is on giant generic term meaning everything :-) which is why addtional and more precise terms exist: wrestling, BJJ, greco-roman, submission, MMA, silat, etc. I appreciate your point made above, but I submit for your consideration that using the giant generic term to refer to BJJ/MMA grappling creates its own confusions. , , , > > For example, mobility. You mention later in your post that I am preaching > to > the choir about the mobility. Here's my point, in a knife clinch > situation, > mobility becomes even more important (both yours and his). We agree. > So instead of it being a "yeah, I'll get around to it" issue, getting out > of his line of fire > becomes a priority. One that your survival pretty much depends on. The big > challenge here though is how do you achieve it in CQC? And can you... will > you... achieve it in the same way? Not clear on what you mean by your final words "in the same way" but as to the rest we agree. , , , > Yeppers, and when it your job to run forward when everyone else runs away, > you really gotta think about ways to survive. Which really means you need > to > look at how to achieve mobility and distance in cramped space, while > making > sure his goes down the toliet. Exactly so. , , , > AND, this goes double for your ability to effect his mobility and > orientation. There's lots more room to move in close than most people > think. Exactly so. > And once you know that, you also realize the importance of making sure the > knifer loses as much of his mobility as possible. Precisely one of the points I have been trying to make with the superiority of tactile reflexes over visual reflexes and the advantages IN SOME CASES of grappling range ONCE IT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED OR IMPOSED over visual range. Also note that mobility, even on angles, in many environments can result in tripping over things and falling on one's glutes. As a general rule, this is not a good thing. >>> Especially with sports techniques? >> >> AGREE 100%. Its why I look at this issue from the perspective of Kali >> Silat. > > Which I commend you for specifically qualifying. The thing is if you say > Hari mau, Serak or Chimande you are talking about some seriously > non-sports > oriented moves. Moves that are so unique that even though they are > committed > at an incredibly close range I'm not sure they'd easily fit within the > common definition of "grappling" -- especially submission fighting. My silat is Inosanto Blend. Yes most people may not be aware of the idioms of movement and concepts of silat. That said, IMHO to the extent that your message is heard as "grappling is really foolish in defending knife attacks" you are inadvertently steering people away from something pretty worthy. > But wasn't the original question about how much do traditional FMA > advocate > (and train for) grappling with a knife? Then when it was shown that isn't > really the case, the discussion went towards "okay, then how do you > grapple > with a knife." Not "how does silat grapple against a blade" (Although I'd > be curious how Hari mau recommends handling these circumstances). Although > from what I learned from Serak and Chimande, I'd say throwing would be > more > an accurate term than grappling. Well I'll be the first to agree that these threads sometimes go non-linear, and readily plead guilty to being amongst the culpable in this regard :-) That said, I'm not sure having adding the term "throwing" into the mix as a category distinct from, as versus being a subset of "grappling" is going to be helpful , , , > My point is now and alway has been that you need to put an end to it ASAP. You're not alone in this :-) For example, Pat's post shows very good understanding. > And an overwhelming amount of what is taught AS grappling fails to do > that. Agree >>> At the same time -- and closely related -- many people will interpret a >>> discussion about "Grappling with a knife" as "Hey I screwed up, better >>> go >>> into grappling range" instead of the more pragmatic "YIKES! I better >>> fight my way out of this range!" Maybe , , , where I sense we differ is that once in grappling range IMHO it is often preferable to stay there. For example, he can outrun me; mobility while facing his continuing attack means I likely will trip over things in the environment; AND if I am sensing my ability to creates the angles, movement etc to impose my anti-knife grappling structures. I don't have your four standards handy at the moment, but we are in hearty agreement concerning the importance and merits of getting behind the elbow. >> Sometimes yes and sometimes no. If I have a good shot at controlling the >> knife limb, I may well be better off at staying in and doing so, seeking >> receiver grips, captures or disarms. Yes? > > With or without the four standards I laid out in my last post? > > In the two times I ended up "grappling" with a knifer, I will admit that I > not only controlled the guys knife arm, but I did actually grab his knife > hand. HOWEVER -- and more importantly -- I managed to "get behind his > elbow" > and thereby destroy his arm's mobility. That's the ONLY reason why the > grab > worked. In taking out his arm's mobility, by extension, I trashed his > "distance" and "reach" which he could have used to escape my grip and stab > me. He couldn't wiggle out in the time he had. In addition, in both cases, > I > unloaded on him a massive barrage of force immediately after stalling his > arm's movement. In neither case did I ever punch the guy. I head-butted > one > before dragging him over (where upon four other guards piled onto him) and > other guy I pinned his arm to the pool table before I proceeded to pick > up, > hurl and dribble him on said table -- complete with poolballs under him > (which didn't do his ribs and kidneys any good). > > In both cases before they could move to counter my hinderance of their > knife > arm, they were screwed. These days, however, I have become a BIG fan of > elbows coming in from odd, little angles. Those puppies screw up all kinds > of things on him in one swell foop -- especially if you have hindered his > mobility through deflection and movement. EXACTLY SO!!! And, per my definitions, in these cases a particular aspect of grappling contributed to your presence with us now. > But that aside, in a clinch, the emphasis needs to be, not on controlling > his knife arm, but destroying his ability to continue to function. The > description I use is "He can't pull the trigger if you've ripped off his > head" But to do that, you need to move (or move him) to a place where you > can unscrew his cap. Of course. Again, Pat's post makes sense to me. > Now, let me point out here, that you CAN move into this position while > hindering his knife arm. In fact, doing so makes it work all the better. You are note alone in this , , , , , , > You will find that hindering the knife arm's mobility, removing his > ability > to move/attack while moving out of the line of danger gets you a far > better > batting average -- especially because they are often synonymous. We agree. > Let's use your example of >>"If I have a good shot at controlling the >> knife limb, I may well be better off at staying in and doing so, seeking >> receiver grips, captures or disarms > > The key word is "may." IF you attempt the following timing -- gain > control > of the arm, move into position, disarm and take down -- then odds are you > are going to get killed. > > Because during the process he still has mobility and superior distance > potential and a better weapon. He's going to use them during your four > step > process and it's going to be rather tricky for you to stop him. > Especially > if you are waiting to get control of the knife arm before you do anything > else (like move). Well yes, if I fight foolishly, of course. > If, however, AS you move into position you: avoid the knife, hinder his > arm's mobility, limit his mobility, slave him to your movement, destroy > his > balance/structure and deliver sufficient force that he is incapable of > attacking again, then odd are that you will survive with a minimum of > damage. MY POINT ALL ALONG. For me, its Kali Silat. , , , >> In vigorous play with friends (including prison guards familiar with >> criminal knife tactics and techniques) my idea is that there are ways to >> frame the crash so as to set up receiver grips, captures or disarms. > > Exactly. But you are talking about something very specific. EXACTLY. > In my book that does NOT qualify as "grappling" in the way most people > use/think of the > term. In fact, I'd call that more FMA terminology/thinking. For me, if people are holding on to each other, grappling is present. It is then necessary to look at specifically what type of grappling. , , , I see that in my phrase "when the adversary is an angry hairless chimpanzee in a killing frenzy" it should read "when the adversary is an angry hairless chimpanzee with a really sharp tooth in a killing frenzy" The Adventure continues , , , Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest