Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:27:20 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #318 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump (WoodyTX) 2. Re: Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump (Marc MacYoung) 3. Re: Knife Grappling Part 5 (Jonathan Kessler) 4. Knife Grappling Part 5 (Marc MacYoung) 5. Re: Controlling Adrenaline Dump (Beungood8@aol.com) 6. Re: Heavy hitters (Beungood8@aol.com) 7. Knife and Grappling (Jorge Penafiel) 8. Re: Master Rey Galang UK Seminar (Winston Tamisin) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:34:19 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am no heavy hitter, but I am fairly smart and alert, and have some experience. The first time you drove a car, did you confidently take charge of the controls, and understand the relationships between velocity, reaction time, linear and lateral acceleration, and the capabilities of yourself and the vehicle? Or were you totally confused by the experience, unsure of which sensory input was important at the time? In a crisis situation, did you find yourself unable to drive into another lane, even though it was clear, simply because "you don't cross solid lines"? Don't do that now, do you? The first time you played in a team sport, did you get confused as hell, trying to figure EVERYTHING out and do what you practiced, thinking your way through the event instead of reacting to it? Didn't work, did it? :-) But you got better. The first time you sparred with a partner, did you forget about 80% of what you knew? Yeah, me too. But I got better. The first time you got drunk/stoned/dizzy/drugged, did you realize that the world didn't change, just your perceptions? Or did it take a few times? The adrenaline dump of fighting is like that. We know that adrenaline makes profound changes in the body's physiology, many of which have a huge impact on one's ability to perceive, to think, and to control his body and mind. It is an entirely new experience for many. But the more times you experience something, the better you get at handling it, and performing in that new environment. IMHO, there is a genetic component, and there's also an environmental/personality component (the thrill seeker vs. the control freak). There are obvious implications to this. Spar at full speed occasionally. Learn to embrace and even to harness the adrenaline dump. Learn your body's reaction to stimuli. The more you dive into that ocean, the better you'll swim. If you have doubts, ask an old combat soldier if he got better at handling it. ;-) Woody On 9/11/05, Michael Koblic wrote: > Animal wrote (I paraphrase) "Heavy hitters are able to control their > adrenaline dump". > > To me, this constitutes the crux of success in a confrontation, physical or > otherwise, more important than physical prowess. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:27:26 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Heavy hitters and adrenaline dump Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > 1. (Michael Koblic) > Animal wrote (I paraphrase) "Heavy hitters are able to control their > adrenaline dump". > > To me, this constitutes the crux of success in a confrontation, physical > or > otherwise, more important than physical prowess. I've pontificated enough lately, I need to get back to more profitable endeavors. But I will say that this subject bears intense study, scrutiny, consideration and skull sweat. And the more you know, the more your brain will hurt. Peyton Quinn, my wife and I were sitting around drinking champagne one night discussing "scenario based training." I looked at him and said "What's bugging me is that much of this adrenalin inducing training is like Ken Kesey said in the 'Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.' It's a doorway. It's not an end to itself. The idea is to go through the doorway and keep on going into what's beyond. Not going back and forth through the same doorway again and again. People are getting hung up on the adrenalin rush. They don't realize how much more is out there beyond the doorway. I mean, that's where the shit gets deep. How can you communicate what's beyond the door?" Peyton leaned back in his chair and replied "You and I know that Animal. But there's no way to teach it. It's hard enough just to get them to the door." With that, we went back to drinking. Mike, you may have asked a simple question, but believe me when I tell you it ain't gonna be a simple answer. M --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Knife Grappling Part 5 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm a pretty well educated guy, but this discussion is reaching a point where it's getting kind of hard to follow, due in no small part to length. Maybe that's a by product of cut and recut email replies... There's sure a lot of good information and experience in there, though. Mark M, a while or so ago on this thread, you asked if someone could suggest how you could cogently answer in less than thirty-odd paragraphs. I'd offer that you did it in your "4 points", and that posting them earlier in the conversation (what you'd advise *to do* IF you find yourself in a CQC situation with a knife) in addition to strongly making the points that you made about what NOT to do (or at least the points I was able to retain from your posts), e.g. 1)it's Really Bad to get into a CQC situation with a knife; 2) you Really Want to Avoid it, and 3) MMA style "grappling" is NOT what you want to do if you wind up there) would have saved a lot of e-trees. That said, thanks for posting, and for those of us with more limited ability to follow complex e-discourse, would you mind posting your "4 points" again? JK --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:23:23 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Grappling Part 5 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc Denny > I appreciate your point made above, but I submit for your consideration > that > using the giant generic term to refer to BJJ/MMA grappling creates its own > confusions. Probably so, but like I have said again and again, it isn't the style as much as meeting the standards of effectiveness. And as I've also said, I've seen the same systems both work and fail. So while attitudes common in BJJ/MMA would be problematic in a knife clinch situation, they are not only found there. (There's a story at the end of this post about silat grappling failing) >> So instead of it being a "yeah, I'll get around to it" issue, getting out >> of his line of fire >> becomes a priority. One that your survival pretty much depends on. The >> big >> challenge here though is how do you achieve it in CQC? And can you... >> will >> you... achieve it in the same way? > Not clear on what you mean by your final words "in the same way" but as to > the rest we agree. Mobility > Precisely one of the points I have been trying to make with the > superiority > of tactile reflexes over visual reflexes and the advantages IN SOME CASES > of > grappling range ONCE IT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED OR IMPOSED over visual range. Damn, I forgot to respond to this. Yes, you are correct regarding tactile vs. visual reflexes > Also note that mobility, even on angles, in many environments can result > in > tripping over things and falling on one's glutes. As a general rule, this > is not a good thing. This is a discussion for next time we get together for coffee or beer. But remember what I said about mobility in cramped spaces? How much mobility do you have without stepping? I say a lot more than most people think. Real important in a clinch -- especially if you don't want to hit the deck. > That said, IMHO to the extent that your message is heard as "grappling is > really foolish in defending knife attacks" you are inadvertently steering > people away from something pretty worthy. I hope not. What I hope to be doing is getting them to realize that it is not the destination. While it is a critical point along the way, it's what you need to do from there that can and will save your life. It is not a "Get to grappling and everything will be fine." You still need to meet standards -- especially at that range. At a silat/FMA seminar I once saw an instructor (who has become a very serious and oft quoted critic of mine) teaching a grappling move against a knife. The person he was demonstrating on is an MD and as he was demonstrating the grappling technique the doctor got a confused look on her face. She then took an eight inch practice knife and planted it into a rather effective killzone. One she and I both knew was a bad place to get stabbed. He had not met standards. He continued to do the next few steps necessary to make the move a neck breaker. The doctor and he got into a heated debate that she had "killed" him. His point was she had only wounded him before he killed her (although I seriously doubt he would have been able to complete the set up moves with a knife sticking in that spot). I gestured to her to let it go and we'd speak when he left. She came uncorked to me about the situation and I told her "Yeah, he forgot to do something" She asked what and I responded "He didn't remove your ability to attack" She asked what I meant and we got into the same position "See if you twist here..." I said. "URK!!" she said. When she got up she admitted that she couldn't have attacked me and that was the missing piece. Same technique, different standards. Neither technique or grappling will guarantee that you meet the standards, you have to do that. And if that means you have to move out of "grappling, " then so be it. Just meet the standards. I don't care how. M --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:11:02 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Controlling Adrenaline Dump Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 9/13/2005 6:48:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Animal wrote (I paraphrase) "Heavy hitters are able to control their adrenaline dump". To me, this constitutes the crux of success in a confrontation, physical or otherwise, more important than physical prowess. The big question is, can you train for it? Is it given by your genes. Is it acquired by a frequent exposure to situations (or would this just make you "gun-shy" later?). Is it to do with the "unity of mind and body"? I do not mean in an esoteric martial artsy way but simply: have you any compunction about teeing off on this guy? From my limited experience the decision whether to go or not to go causes more stress and adrenaline than the actual action. Such decision also introduces vital milliseconds of hesitation with seeds of self-destruction within it. Even if one knows on an intellectual level (if , indeed, there is intellect involved) that the attack on oneself is imminent and one should pre-empt, many psychological, developmental, social and other factors say that you should not. I am not sure that confidence of the type "I can take this guy" is the answer. Sun-tzu teaches us that if we know ourselves and do not know the enemy our chances of success are about 50%. Not the odds I want to go with if my life is at stake unless something else, more important than my life, I think anyone can train and condition themselves for this. I don't think it is the realm of just "Heavy Hitters". It is not a switch in the sense of turning on and off. It is a physiological response (and quite normal) to stress and your body's response to it. You control it by recognizing what it is and what your feeling and go with it using your training and breathing. Also confidence in yourself and your abilities and not second guessing yourself because you feel "scared" ,it's normal it's what keeps us safe. You just gotta do it man, stop look and react. FWIW. Jack --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:13:25 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Heavy hitters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 9/13/2005 6:48:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What do the heavy hitters on this list do? I don't know what you mean by heavy hitters. I am a Police Officers and have been involved in a few incidents that provoked the response you mentioned. I think the thing that helpe me prevail in all of them was keeping a level head, relaxing and attention to detail at what I was working with. Jack --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:46:12 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife and Grappling Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings All !! My take on this Grappling Knife thread - WOW and COMPREHENSIVE !!! Assuming this is about grappling and knife only,,the context is already overwhelming, lots to learn, and also conjectures. Knowlegde/opinions/life experiences/etc. were shared, so pick and choose as I did whatever that I could remember To me,,,knife fighting be it for dojo training assuming conceivable scenarios and/or actual life combative situations experienced by some is undefinable. Outcome oftentimes were seriously morbid as I've witnessed and seen. . Heavens forbid, we knife train but things change when a real knifer is there in front assuming a great stance with a saksak or pokol grip ready to slice you all over with what look like a surgical sharp blade. Ideally, we all hope that the smack will deliver a knife attack we'd practice a thousand times. But we all know this is not,,,,same as the other aspect of MA we do and practice.. Anyways, let us keep on practicing for the art, skill sake, and self preservation only as a final option.. Not in my life time do I wish or forsee by no sheer luck/escape/avoidance, that I will finally be caught in harm's way by a "perfect strom".... Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:28:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Winston Tamisin Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Master Rey Galang UK Seminar To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Peter, Good luck with your seminar. You should have no problems filling your spots, Master Galang is definitly a big draw. Regards, Winston ------------------------------------ Winston Tamisin CEO / Co-Founder SMAK-Stiks, LLC http://www.smakstiks.com Peter Lewis wrote: Hi All Following the success of the June event, I have now booked Master Rey Galang for a Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo seminar on 20 November 2005. This is a pre-booked only event with a cost of £50.00 per participant. Any instructor bringing six students can train free. It is hoped that this seminar will coinside with the release of Master Rey's latest book, "Masters of the Blade." If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Very best regards Peter www.yuli-romo.com www.bakbakan.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest