Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 03:01:18 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #340 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sticks (James Nordstrom) 2. Re: Pencak Silat knife techniques (Leslie L. Buck Jr. TKA) 3. Re: Picking sticks (Eagle556@aol.com) 4. Re: Crosstraining in Krav maga (sidney525@aol.com) 5. Re: kick vs weapon. (David Riggs) 6. DBMA this weekend in Bloomington, ILLINOIS (Marc Denny) 7. Re: Re: Crosstraining in Krav maga (Steve Kohn) 8. re: Silat (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:50:46 -0700 (PDT) From: James Nordstrom To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sticks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I like the white wax wood sticks I got from Century Fitness (http://www.centuryfitness.com/). I bought a couple of staffs and cut them down to what I wanted. They have held up better than most of the rattan I have gone thru. Cheers James Cheers Jim "Taking life on the chin is all fine and well, but when life throws you a pile of shit best learn to bob and weave." "If people would just be half as smart as they think they are, they would be twice as smart as they really are." --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:31:10 -0500 From: "Leslie L. Buck Jr. TKA" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pencak Silat knife techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In regards to knife and Pencak Silat, what I have seen is very similar to the Filipino arts, but it was often taught differently. Most of my exposure to PS is either Mande Muda or PS in West Java. For the most part, in empty hands vs. knife, knife tapping-like techniques are used and finishes are stuns with palm strikes, hacks, and elbows as well as mostly arm breaks and takedowns. I have seen masters do blade and double blade patterns and techniques that look either just like the PS empty hands movements (which were somehow designed to work for both weapons and empty hands) or like the double stick patterns of Kali. In Sumatra, I saw Silek counters of empty hands vs. knife where the defender would bind up the attacking arm and smother the attacker in order to take him down and break things. Many of the masters I met and sometimes trained with were former freedom fighters who had guerrilla war experience. They fought with everything from slingshots and sharp bamboo poles vs. rifles to blade vs. gun, until they could capture firearms and rifles for themselves. Often, they taught their fellow freedom fighters some PS techniques and tactics. However, one told me, that empty hands was easy to train and use, but weapons were hard. Nonetheless, they did have weapons training in their post war PS styles, including knife. As far as Mande Muda, Pak Herman said empty hands were his specialty, even though he had trained with weapons all his life and had survived at least a few blade attacks. Uyuh Suwanda, Pak Hermanıs father, had the men and boys focus on empty hands whereas the girls and women focused more on kembangan and weapons, since it was less appropriate for women to roll around on the ground and roughhouse. PS Mande Muda does have a lot of knife when I think about it. Aside from some of the more traditional subsystems, which include golok ( like a small machete), double golok, karambit and knife, Pak Herman consolidated his knife material into what he called Sabetan (sabet = ³to slice² or ³to slash² in bahasa Sunda). Most known are roughly 30 drills with variations that deal with knife to knife in various grips and empty hands vs. knife as well as using specialized 2 ended knives or karambits. I have seen video of Uyuh Suwanda demonstrating keris techniques and some of the Sabetan material related to the Cimande subsystem. Anyway, most of the Sabetan material is densely packed with techniques that are very much like Kali knife material, but it also has some material that is very different. The Sabetan drills are continuous flow drills which focus on timing, sensitivity and coordination, but without instruction or a lot of R&D, many people will not fully understand the application. Kali flow drills are usually more straight forward and based on application that is clearly apparent, whereas the Silat drills tend to be more difficult to decipher. I think the approach is simply different, and often traditional PS instructors hide the deadly stuff for a long time anyway. Itıs typical for one to teach the jurus (form) openly, but save the application for later. As a final note, I have seen Pak Herman use a kick vs. a simulated knife attack, but at the time he was sitting on the ground, leaning, with his back to a wall and hands on the ground. He kicked the attackers elbow. Seemed reasonable to me in the scenario. sorry for the long post, Leslie --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Eagle556@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:45:52 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Picking sticks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I basically pick my stick on one criteria. Will the stick be able to stop an attacker? Somewhat a simplistic answer but then again I am a simple person (some would say simple minded). That's how I judge sticks whether they are rattan or hard woods. Over the years I have used quite a few different woods, a variety of rattan, some plastics, and even experimented with various metals to include aluminum and titanium. Regarding rattan I find that the heavier the stick is the more likely it will hold up when you really need it to. I have had rattan sticks with one node hold up while sticks with four or five nodes fell apart. But then again I have sticks with one node fall apart while the sticks with four or five nodes held up well. The common factor on the sticks that held up was the weight of the stick. The heavier the stick the better it held up. I have also had good luck with soaking my sticks, hard wood and rattan, in boiled linseed oil. In hard woods I have had mixed results with bahi and bad luck with kamagong. Only one bahi stick has survived over the years and no kamagong stick has survived. In hard woods I always seem to fall back on that good old standard, hickory. For the price and availability it cannot be beat. I have used a variety of plastics but am always a little leery of using them especially having seen a few of them shatter and produce shards that flew off everywhere. Under no circumstances use PVC pipe. I use aluminum when paired with a sword or a sword and dagger. It doesn't create the sparks that steel to steel does. And it helps teach the student how to apply their blunt weapon against a bladed weapon. However it's important that the student learn to deal with the realities of steel to steel or steel to rattan or wood. It's interesting to watch how students deal with the fact that their rattan or hardwood is now stuck to the edge of my sword (if only for a brief second) and that my dagger is now fast approaching their stomach region. I also have a variety of aluminum blades that I made up to train with. These aluminum weapons range from daggers and smaller blades all the way up to Kris', Barongs, Kampilans, machetes, and even a Panabas. That's somewhat of a glimpse of my limited experience with a variety of materials. I hope that it helps. Take care, Rob McDonald --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:36:42 -0400 From: sidney525@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Crosstraining in Krav maga Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net if you go to any qualified FMA instructor you will find just about all the same techniuqes & concepts found in Krav Maga. Krav Maga is just the latest "hot" martial art, and in another few years it will be something else. So bottom line, study a good martial arts system under a good instructor and you will be fine. Sid --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:59:51 -0400 From: David Riggs To: Eskrima mail list Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kick vs weapon. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've done this (kick to the wrist) as well. It can work but puts your limb awful close to the blade. If the velocity of the kick isn't great enough you also risk him riding you. Even an unconcious twist by the opponent could end up with a slashing wound. If the opponent is in a reversed (ice pick) grip forget about it. He'' probably cradle the knife and receive the kick on the blade. On 10/7/05 11:12 AM, "eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net" wrote: > -- __--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 16:59:56 -0500 > From: WoodyTX > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Steve Kohn -the kick disarm? > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > I thought a quick snap-kick to the wrist when the attacker was > _totally_ distracted would work. It has worked a few times in > sparring, but never at full speed with an aware opponent. > > Woody > > > On 10/6/05, David Riggs wrote: > >> If >> I were to apply said tech. I'd probably addapt it to strike at a control >> point (nearer the elbow of the attacking limb). The central position and >> smaller range of motion make it a more effective target with the same net >> result. >> >> My two cents. >> David > > -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 10:31:40 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] DBMA this weekend in Bloomington, ILLINOIS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: October 8 - 9, 2005 Bloomginton, IL Dog Brothers Martial Arts Seminar Featuring Guro Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny Contact Doug Sutton 309-261-0331 dougsutton@hotmail.com Guro Crafty --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Crosstraining in Krav maga To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Theres used to be a Krav Maga instructor at the Inosanto Academy (back in the day) that I heard brought a lot of FMA techniques to Krav. He said that they don't really consider Krav to be an art as much as it is a system of self defense. He also went on to demonstrate a few no-nonsense techniques that looked good to me. It is a very commercial art, but it's no Tae Bo. -S sidney525@aol.com wrote: if you go to any qualified FMA instructor you will find just about all the same techniuqes & concepts found in Krav Maga. Krav Maga is just the latest "hot" martial art, and in another few years it will be something else. So bottom line, study a good martial arts system under a good instructor and you will be fine. Sid _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:07:16 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Silat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Joseph Marana > I have often heard Guro Dan Inosanto talk about the importance of > distinguishing techniques from tactics. There is a statement that is really worth looking into the implications. Not only is it a precise summation, but it is a VERY important differienation that many people don't even realize exists. He has also said that everything > has its place and time. In this case, it sounds like that particular > technique is not something that you (nor I) would employ as a tactical > response to something like a knife attack. Might I also point out another issue here. Many years ago Peyton Quinn and I were sitting around doing fatal damage to some alcohol talking about video production standards. His summation was that there are two different types of MA videos, informative (those that teach you how to do something) and demonstrative (those that show you what kind of groovy cool things you can do if you come and study with the grand poobah). Now expanding on this concept, many of the latter type have a lot of flashy, sparkly whiz bang looking moves that are very impressive for people who don't know what is necessary for effective movement. I mean face it a small subtle -- but very effective -- movement neither films as well nor impresses people who base their ideas of self-defense on TV/movies. The complexity of the moves however, are such that you can't learn them without further training. Which is kind of the standard of how to tell the difference between the two types. After watching the tape, can you effectively do the move? If yes, it was an instructional tape. If no -- you will need more training/tapes/etc. -- then it was advertising. Over the years I have come to add a third category of video "Pyramid schemes." These are where complex moves are being done, yet the instructor is only talking about one minute aspect. When it is pointed out that the reason the technique works is all those things he DIDN'T mention,(and without them the move will fail miserably) the answer is invariably "Oh that was covered in Volume 2, which you can buy for the mere price of....." Call me a cynic, but most of the flashy moved, weak/ unrealistic tapes I have seen fall in these latter two categories....and they are often advertised as the most deadly of fighting styles or *secrets*. In fact, the weaker they are, the more deadly they are promoted as. They are also the ones that I have seen who are most likely to promote excessive and unwarranted force. Apparently over-kill will make up for inherent weakness in the information Andrew, you might want to watch this video again and see how this information affects your perspective -- especially the part promoting a spinning kick against a knife. Would it work to keep you from getting stabbed? Not likely. Would it work to wow an uninformed consumer? You betcha. A whole lot of the stuff out there isn't designed to inform the viewer, but impress the gullible to buy more. But that's marketing disguised as martial arts. Oh wait...that never ever happens in the MA business world....just ask these guys, they'll tell you what they teach is traditional -- and deadly -- "whatever" < / sarcastic tone > M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest