Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 03:00:46 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #352 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: RE: NYC bouncer knifing & evil fighting knives... (Ken Borowiec) 2. NYC bouncer knifing and the media (Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness) 3. RE: RE: NYC bouncer knifing & evil fighting knives... (Pierre Honeyman) 4. RE: RE: NYC bouncer knifing & evil fighting knives... (Ken Borowiec) 5. Re: Secret techniques (Marc MacYoung) 6. Re: Filipino Music (RavenSire@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: NYC bouncer knifing & evil fighting knives... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:53:56 -0400 From: "Ken Borowiec" To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my opinion treating "knife" as a "secret" is foolish. There is no reason to do so. In fact it may even be counterproductive. Edged weapons are extremely common weapons - IIRC knives were the number one weapon used in homicides in Canada last year (or maybe the year before) - and refusing to teach their use, and thus the defenses against them, could actually be leaving students at risk. -Pierre I do not believe it should be secret either but I do believe that the way it is taught should be carefully structured to both protect the instructor and the victims of an idiot with a blade. Stabbings do happen all the time and it is unfortunate. The bouncer incident (I learned recently) stabbed twisted and pulled. For all I know he learned it from the movie "face off". But he attended a school that ended up on the wrong end of the press and people who did not have a full understanding of the story as a whole. The school as a whole suffered because of one guy who thought he could get away with it. One question though what does "IIRC" stand for? Ken --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:18:50 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] NYC bouncer knifing and the media Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just a short note of the "media" regarding the unfortunate occurance. I run a FMA school in the NY/NJ area and was contacted, as were a few other FMA schools, by a reporter from major NY newspaper. The reported said she wanted to do a story on FMA, history, culture etc..she never mentioned this event until I started questioning her and it came to light that she was doing the story as part of her coverage on this event! I declined as I correctly thought she was going to portray FMA instructors as irresponsible, evil etc. etc..etc... I take it the other schools declined as well. Don www.imafit.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:59:48 -0700 From: Pierre Honeyman To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: NYC bouncer knifing & evil fighting knives... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting Ken Borowiec : > I do not believe it should be secret either but I do believe that the > way it is taught should be carefully structured to both protect the > instructor and the victims of an idiot with a blade. But how? > Stabbings do happen > all the time and it is unfortunate. The bouncer incident (I learned > recently) stabbed twisted and pulled. For all I know he learned it from > the movie "face off". But he attended a school that ended up on the > wrong end of the press and people who did not have a full understanding > of the story as a whole. The school as a whole suffered because of one > guy who thought he could get away with it. Yep. It was unfortunate. But how do you protect against that? The stab-twist-pull technique, for instance, is pretty standard in the FMA and also many, many other arts. Using that as an example, how would a school keep it secret enough to be "safe" in court? > One question though what does "IIRC" stand for? Sorry, it's shorthand for "If I Recall Correctly". Pierre --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: NYC bouncer knifing & evil fighting knives... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:00:33 -0400 From: "Ken Borowiec" To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Yep. It was unfortunate. But how do you protect against that? The stab-twist-pull technique, for instance, is pretty standard in the FMA and also many, many other arts. Using that as an example, how would a school keep it secret enough to be "safe" in court?" I had stated that I agree it should not be secret(as you set in quotes to the but how question). But if the method of teaching is structured properly should the school be questioned they can defend themselves just by having their students come in and answer questions truthfully. "But how?" By having a "pre-set" way of teaching so their students can be character witnesses as well as simply showing a printing of a set curriculum Ken --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:27:03 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Secret techniques Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Ken Borowiec" > The only error to your response was that I meant there were box cutter > incidents in the news as well as the story of the attack in the NY bar. > I meant them as two different incidents not the same. Oops, I didn't catch that. >But now that I > read all the details of that story I did not know I realize he did > intend on killing the poor bouncer. Thank you for clarifying that for > me. Because I realize now it wasn't just a "accidental killing". It wasn't "accidental." But the jury convicted him of manslaughter because they couldn't decide if he had meant to kill Blake (murder) or just stab him -- and Blake ended up dying (manslaughter). Umali's defense was that he thought he was saving the life of his friend against this big bouncer who was chokeholding him. However, the points against Umali were 1) his training 2) it is a fatal strike 3) Even though Blake was huge, it was two against one. 4) Umali's joining made it 3 to 1 AND a weapon 5) the brothers (Umali's "friends") weren't lilly white -- including their father a known Chinese gangster being in prison for murder - and had started it 6) How does a martial artist NOT know about a choke hold and know it tends not to be fatal? 7) His knife choice and 8) His subsequent actions were consistent not with self-defense but knowing that he had done wrong. Rob Mulligan said The technique used by > Isaias Umali to kill Dana Blake was/is something many of us know and some > of us teach. Exactly so. It is a both a crippling and (usually) fatal strike. What I wonder about, however, is did the prosecution know that? Because I think if they did they could have brought in their own experts to prove that it was intentional strike (knowing that it is fatal if done correctly), not an accidental death. > I've written before how many opportunities he had to bail out, and he > didn't. Which again exemplifies the importance of knowing the difference between fighting and self-defense. I am often regaled with stories of "innocent" people in prison for murder/manslaughter by people who are convinced that their friend/cousin/spouse/etc. was wrongfully convicted. In listening to the stories, I always find the point where the person "crossed the line" and went from SD into aggressor mode. I can then tell these people "this is where it stopped being self-defense" -- usually because the lack of immediate threat. Equally common in these cases are the person's refusal to exit from the situation despite ample opportunity to do so. I'm not talking about "duty to retreat" here, I'm talking about the choice to stay, be involved with the creation and escalation of the situation. Which is very damning to the person's case when they cross the line from SD into aggressor. Their self-defense plea is seriously damaged by their "before and after" actions. > There's the issue. How can we know that our student will be responsible > with our "secret deadly" technique? We can't and we don't. My answer to that is as follows. Do NOT assume that people know what self-defense means. Explain it. Not by what you think it means, but by what the law defines it as. Cover yourself by making it part of your curriculum to regularly bring in experts. Divorce your marketing from the macho "Warrior" and "deadly fighting art" sales campaigns. Emphasize the art, custom, tradition, health and personal development aspects of what you teach, instead of how deadly it is on "the streets." Run your curriculum past lawyers and see where what you are teaching would get your students -- and you -- in both criminal and civil trouble if they use it. Tailor your teaching style and information so that your students can both survive the situation AND the courts. If you find that your students are standing around reinforcing each other with warrior/streetfighting fantasies, dissuade them. Be consistent in these endeavors (e.g. don't say that in class and then demonstrate super kewl killing techniques on the side or in privates). Not only does this go miles to indemnify you and your school, but it dissuades the kind of students who are most likely to missuse your information. Because you are talking about these other boring issues and you are encouraging self-control, personal responsibility and accepting the existence of external factors, the wanna-be street warriors tend to self-select. They don't want to waste their time with all this boring and pedantic stuff, they want to go out and become deadly knife fighters. You bore the hell out of them and they'll go where they can find someone who will teach them how to get raped in prison. Face it folks, teaching knife work is teaching a lethal force skillset. Consider knives the power tools of the SD world; with power tools mistakes happen faster and are messier than with simple hand tools. The same applies with blade work. So cover your asses regarding the misuse of the information. Don't set yourself up to be sued along "deep pocket" lines if one of your students misuses the information. Rob continues >I'll be an wary and cautious arrogant A-hole who can sleep at night. And I will remain a pedantic, preachy and over the top one who too will snore happily away. M --__--__-- Message: 6 From: RavenSire@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:47:53 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Filipino Music To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi everyone, ok, i'm confused... i see that filipino music called "kulintang" keeps being mentioned. i spoke to my girlfriend (she's filipino) and she said she thought i meant "koumintang", a traditional filipino dance done with weapons where the warriors fight to win a maiden. is that what you guys are talking about or am i way off and its a different kind of music altogether? either way, has anyone heard of this type (koumintang)? and again, has anyone checked out japan's taiko drums? peace, ra! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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