Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:00:51 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #362 - 3 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Shocknife (Joseph Marana) 2. RE: Article: how does BJJ handle multiple attackers? (Joseph Marana) 3. Re: Article: when the wolfpack attacks (Todd Ellner) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:43:25 -0700 From: "Joseph Marana" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Shocknife To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I do agree that you get immediate tactile feedback with any training blade, however I believe there is certainly a continuum of feedback that different kinds of training tools elicit. If a partner and I were using flexible yellow foam in the shape of knives we both could get tactile feedback, however at least for me I do not think I would respond exactly the same way I would when using aluminum trainers, no matter how hard I would try to pretend that the yellow foam was "real". Personally I believe that the closer my training can approximate a particular situation I am training for, the more honest I am going to be with my reactions in part because I may be forced to. When I get whacked with an aluminum trainer and I reflexively pull back from pain that may provide me with valuable information that I may not get with even a rubber training tool. I think this is also why training tools like the "Bob" dummy have become popular as well, because they may provide more stimulus (or at least different stimulus) than a traditional heavy bag or makiwara board or what have you. With that being said I think there is also always a danger in becoming too relaxed in training, either because of apathy or laziness from yourself or even your partner. After training with aluminum training knives for a few years now, even with my most sincere intent and concentration in training I am almost certain that the way I respond to my partners with trainers will still be different from the way I respond to partners with live blades. There are already schools that use tasers as training tools, I am assuming for this very reason... to elicit different responses than traditional aluminum trainers. I'm sure that if I was training with someone trying to "catch" me with a taser my own fear response would automatically alter my movements, and in this may very much approximate the way I would move when facing a live blade. Is this new technology expensive? Yes, and probably too expensive for me and for many people. However I personally would not invalidate those that make or use it, nor would I dismiss it as excessive or ridiculous. For right now, its just not for me. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Joaquin Torres [mailto:lordvader@cfl.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 2:39 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Shocknife Fine... Um...no. You get 'immediate tactile feedback' with any training blade. If you're honest with your training and understand what would happen if live blades had been in blade, then a ridiculously expensive tool like this is completely unnecessary. If you want more intense 'immediate tactile feedback', then just whack the hell out of each other with relatively inexpensive aluminum trainers. If you want some visual feedback, get a No-Lie blade or just take some chalk to the edge of your aluminum trainers. Steve Ames wrote: >tastes it seems pretty pricey for a training tool but you do get immediate >tactile feedback right? > >-steve > > > > ? I'm curious what 'Um..no.' adds to the conversation? Why not? To my > >>Kevin Davis wrote: >> >> >> >>>I just did a review for Tactical Response magazine on a new training blade, >>>the Shocknife. The knife does as advertised and would be a worthwhile >>>investment for any serious blade player. Full manufacture should take >>>place >>>within four weeks. >>> >>>Single trainers will run around $400 with a knife fighter package (two >>>Shocknives in a hard case) and academy packages (ten knives/hard case) >>>available. >>> >>>Check out www.shocknife.com for more info >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members >>Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>Standard disclaimers apply >>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:53:28 -0700 From: "Joseph Marana" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Article: how does BJJ handle multiple attackers? To: Cc: "Bmarana@Loyola.Edu" , "Bmarana@Gmail.Com" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have seen on many occasions one person "defeat" multiple opponents, not by fighting all of them, but by engaging one or two with extreme physical force and then watching the group/mob mentality change to a "less agressive" tone. In the cases that I have seen most of these outcomes were the result of striking techniques (punches or weapon assisted mostly) but I did see one encounter go to the ground before the rest of the group backed off. I believe that this article makes a lot of good points, however I would not say that facing multiple opponents is impossible. In my own experience, "style" had less to do with the success of the outcomes I have seen than the mental preparedness that I have seen some people exhibit, and maybe that is a function of training methodology, and not style alone. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 6:13 PM To: jyesluv@hotmail.com Subject: [Eskrima] Article: how does BJJ handle multiple attackers? How does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu work against multiple attackers? Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is not suited for fighting multiple opponents. On the ground, you cannot engage more than one opponent at a time. Jiu-Jitsu is ideally suited for one-on-one combat. Multiple attackers will come at you from all directions; you are sure to be hit or tackled from behind. When you are committed on the ground, you dramatically reduce your mobility and peripheral vision. In the case of multiple attackers, your safest option is to remain on your feet and escape when the opportunity presents itself. Any martial artist who claims he can fight off multiple attackers is either deluded or deliberately misleading. The fact is, there is no magic style that can guarantee your chances of victory. Exchanging blows with only one opponent who is bigger, stronger and heavier is very dangerous at best. Exchanging blows with multiple opponents who are bigger, stronger, and heavier is pure suicide. Even if your opponents are not bigger than you, they can easily overwhelm you with their sheer numbers. Unless your attackers are Hollywood stuntmen, they will not conveniently attack you, one at a time or stand in a single file line. In the real world, you will either be surrounded and assaulted all at once, or tackled and brought to the ground, where your assailants will continue to punch and kick you while you lay trapped. If you cannot prevent just one attacker from taking you to the ground, you will not be able to prevent a takedown against two or more attackers. Your best and safest option when confronted with multiple attackers is to get out of the situationfast. If you cannot run, you must stay on your feet and engage your opponents, one at a time, with accurate strikes to vital areas of the body (groin, eyes, throat), or utilize grappling techniques that allow you to control your attacker on your feet. You must always keep an opponent between yourself and the rest of your attackers. Never let yourself become surrounded. Your goal should be to look for the first possible opening to escape as soon as possible. All it takes is just one punch from behind and you could be knocked out. What happens afterwards is entirely up to your attackers. If you are knocked out on the street, you are as good as dead. The martial arts world is constantly filled with exaggerations and wild claims of superhuman feats. Perhaps the most common is that one unarmed man can defeat an aggressive mob by himself. Don't be fooled by these so-called masters claiming to be able to defeat multiple attackers. It looks great on the movie screen, but it doesn't happen that way in real life. It's one thing to fight off a bunch of 10-year old kids. It's another thing altogether to be surrounded by an angry group, determined to hurt you. There is NO martial art style that can realistically prepare you to defeat multiple opponents or overwhelm mass attacks. There are only certain strategies and tactics you can employ to increase your chances of survival, but no matter what style you train in, your chances of defeating multiple opponents drop sharply as your opponents increase in number. Practitioners of the striking arts face the same disadvantages that grapplers do when confronted against multiple assailants. When you commit yourself to engaging one opponent, be it striking or grappling, you leave yourself open to attacks from behind. Even if you have eyes in the back of your head, you still only have two fists and two feet. Ironically, many of the martial artists who have made such outlandish claims have proven incapable of defending against even one single attacker in no-holds-barred competition. If you want to train yourself to fight multiple attackers, find some training partners, put on some pads, and let your partners come at you full force. You will get a very "real" and different perspective. Stay safe by avoiding multiple opponents altogether. If you must defend yourself, look for the first possible opening to escape. There is the misconception that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu stylists mindlessly advocate taking the fight to the ground. This is totally untrue. There are times when taking the fight to the ground is clearly dangerous and undesirable. Most grappling styles train throws and takedowns in one form or another. As a result, grapplers become very skilled at countering takedown attempts and this makes them better qualified than strikers should they choose to remain on their feet. Most striking styles do not train throws or takedowns to the extent that grapplers do. If one does not train throws or takedowns, then one will not understand how to defend against them. Should the grappler decide to remain standing, he can make use of his grappling skills to counter his attacker's attempts and fight from the standing clinch. If he is taken down to the ground, his knowledge of ground fighting will allow him to return to his feet quickly if need be. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:33:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Article: when the wolfpack attacks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ah, yes, Phil Messina. If you ever have the chance to train with him you'd be a damned fool not to. His record speaks for itself. Speaks? Hell, it howls at the top of its lungs. NYPD's most decorated officer. Most felony arrests. One of about three survivors (as in the others were all dead) of the Violent Street Crimes Unit. Founder of ASLET. Vietnam-era Marine with an very distinguished service record. More black belts than most of us have t-shirts. Regularly has the White House Marine Guards and the FBI HRT over for training. Founder of Modern Warrior, probably the best police tactics, martial arts and women's self defense school on the continent, bar none. And he makes the differences between the three absolutely explicit. Old buddy of luminaries like Jim Cirrilo and Massad Ayoob. Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. His advice on anything connected with staying alive when other people don't want you to is solid gold. If he hasn't personally been there and done it out in the world a couple dozen of his students have. He's constantly researching and improving his stuff and is dedicated to preparing the good guys to deal with the bad guys with a zeal that borders on the religious. His particular specialty is dealing with multiple armed assailants. He did it for years and is still alive when he shouldn't be. Many of his students owe their lives to what he's taught them. I've only taken a couple short courses from him (two/three day things) and a number of shorter units of instruction at AWSDA events. Every one of them has changed the way I do something, always for the better. He was doing something about short-circuiting the effects of adrenaline, fighting from the ground, beating multiple attackers and similar for years or decades before it was on anyone else's radar. Within a couple months of 9/11 he had a very practical self-contained system for fighting terrorists in close quarters such as airplanes. If nothing else he deserves a hell of a lot of credit for his research on things like time and distance (the Tueller drill refined and better defined), the utter fraud that is pepper spray and teaching police to use palm strikes rather than punches. I've met a lot of well-trained, well-prepared people. On average his students are a couple steps ahead of the best of them. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest