Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:01:31 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #376 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: video clip: gary lam (bgdebuque) 2. pocket sticks (Stick Grappler) 3. Shi-fu Gary Lam (rob mulligan) 4. MA Clips:GAry Lam (Jorge Penafiel) 5. Baby and bathwater (Marc MacYoung) 6. Re: Re: Gary Lam Chi Sau video (Steve Kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 00:29:12 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: video clip: gary lam Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Even full contact fighting has its drawbacks. The use of protective gear, for example, tends to over-emphasize the advantage of full-power striking techniques. In actual combat involving sticks or bladed weapons, this mindset could prove fatal. The effect of a 1/3 force abanico strike to the eyes or weapon hand will more or less have the same effect whether delivered against a 240-pound man or a 140-pound man. Because of the regular use of padded gloves and face masks, the full contact fighter will run the risk of ignoring this fact during actual combat situations. Contrary to popular belief, solo drills and cooperative drills can go long way during actual combat situations. In one actual situation in the Philippines, a 60-year old man got into a "ginunting" fight with four 20-something men (which, unfortunately, were also his relatives). The old man was an above average arnis practitioner in his youth but has not trained for about 30 years (except probably for some "once-in-a-blue-moon" 12-strikes solo drills) at the time of the fight. Even when he was still training in his youth, he has not also engaged in any full contact sparring. The highest level of "sparring" he has engaged in were basically cooperative drills. During the fight, the old man managed to deliver one 1/3 strength snap "corto" strike against 3 of his 4 opponents (the 4th man ran away). The first strike hit the tendon of the striking arm of Opponent No. 1 after the old man successfully managed to evade his no. 1 strike, which effectively incapacitated his weapon arm. The second strike met the wrist of Opponent No. 2 as he attempted to deliver a no. 1 strike, thereby also making his weapon hand useless. The third strike hit the achilles tendon of the right leg of opponent no. 3 (obviously, he was already in the process of running away), which immediately made him slump to the ground. As can be seen from this true-to-life example, one snap hit of a bladed weapon is already sufficient to negate a 30-year advantage in age. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I'm with you here. Make you wonder how all the co-operative drills we do in class actually could be useful, eh? Yep. The only way to validate it's usefulness is in a fight. Just take a look at Dog Brothers fighting tapes. All the tapping, footwork...where're they? Most of the time it's like two guys keep hitting each other till one guy drops. Seems like what they're showing is most of the things you practise in the class are useless. Oh, and in one of the Dog Brother tapes, they show a 240 lbs former football player crushing his poor opponents. The point they want to bring out is: if you don't have power in your strikes, how do you think you can stop somebody like that? And I think: Geez, that got to be demoralizing. All the smaller guys and girls could stop training right now cuz' they might never have that kind of power. Scary, eh? OK, now I said it. Flame away. _____________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:50:09 -0800 From: Stick Grappler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] pocket sticks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hello: *bows deeply* as i get back into MA in general and specifically FMA, i go back to one of my favorite areas of study/research, the pocket stick. most of the list knows of the other great FMA-flavored vid by the late Guro Ted Lucaylucay. i did a search in the ED archives and went through some old issues and did not see any mention of Rick Faye's pocket stick vid, which was filmed at one of his seminars. one of my training partners showed me the vid and it's great material. very FMA-flavored. follows a Pekiti Tirsia progression IIRC. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:58:32 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Shi-fu Gary Lam Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net About Shi –fu Gary Lam’s video clip and the way he talks: My wife is from China, she has an accent, and uses some pretty “interesting” Chinglish – So what?   She’s a brilliant martial artist, a great Shi-fu, and an even better human being. About his technique: What, was he supposed to kill the guy?  It was a demonstration.  His hand speed is really good and he flows like water. If you watch the breakdown carefully, you see several parries and punches BEFORE he palm heels the solar plexus and rides up the guys chest to the “face push” The way I was taught that technique was to punch or palm heel the solar plexus after driving his balance backwards with softening punches while walking through him, then drive straight up into the chin (while pulling in on the kidney with my other hand), and over, breaking a few teeth and maybe chopping off a tongue along the way – but I guess that would be a bad idea for his student in a demo clip, so a “face push” would have to do.   My take was that he moves confidently and without hesitation like I would want to do too. Into the big pillow: In a life and death situation, a curb, a plate glass window, the jagged corner of a broken wall, or the top of a fire hydrant would be better, but again, the student may not have appreciated that. Don’t be so quick to dismiss someone just because he doesn’t follow the same path you’re on.   Rob Mulligan www.kwikstik.com                         --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:30:04 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] MA Clips:GAry Lam Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings !! Happy Fall season and may it's show of wonderland colors brings us all vibrant vibes !! Anyhow,,regarding MA video clips: Gary Lam. First, thanks to "All" able enough to show-case any MA clips showing anything worthy to be seen or not depending on ones personal concensus. Your efforts are appreciated and please keep on doing so despite in-coming critiques. Making MA video or clips is a tedious endeavor and thus only a few have the gall or desire in producing them. More so, showing it to experts in a readers/viewersForum. And for those who viewed and send their thoughts, please lets observe some rules of decadence and dwell only on Martial arts and not on someone inferior language delivery or voice tone. That's besides the point and will not sound appropriate specially to some of our diverse readers and Instructors..Technique shown was not new,, but let's not forget to go full blast or hurt the "Oki" or partner just to show effectiveness!!And of course others will show this technique more differently for all intent and purpose. Lastly,,Instructors lets keep on teaching MA techniques and not to worry if people will call it cooperative, effective, street useful, and whatever. This reality mind-set/approach is special of course and will alter our MA training. So, welcome and leave a place and room for it our dojo. Drawback,,,reality MA is not a cup of tea for the majority and is only for a few gladiators out there. My thoughts!!! Jorge V. Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:35:59 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Baby and bathwater Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dave Wong said > Yep. The only way to validate it's usefulness is in a fight. Just take a > look at Dog Brothers fighting tapes. All the tapping, > footwork...where're they? Most of the time it's like two guys keep > hitting each other till one guy drops. Seems like what they're showing > is most of the things you practise in the class are useless. Okay this is going to sound really strange -- especially coming from me a man who regularly receives hate mail for my commentary on the commerical martial arts world/culture -- but the things you practice in class are far from useless. They do in fact, have incredible value and usefulness. Where things begin to lose their value is when you try to make them into something they are not. Putting that in blunt terms when you tell yourself a thing is something else is when you rob it -- and yourself -- of its value. In trying to gain greater value, you lose the existing value. Think killing the goose that lays the golden egg. Martial training has countless values and benefits, (all those stripmall dojo windows aren't lying, they can help you develop things like: self-confidence, self-discipline, courtesy, etc., etc.). It is when you try to force everything into a "fighting mold" that you not only throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you actually sell the kid downriver. You've not only devalued it for yourself, but for other people too. I have two new books out through Lyons Press where I ask the question of the martial arts "Does this move work as advertised?" The usual answer is "NO." But over the years I have come to realize that the problem isn't only with the move, but as just much -- if not more so -- with the advertising. It isn't that the move/drill/ technique is worthless -- in fact, when you pull away all the BS advertising it's really useful for A,B and C. The real problem is people believe it to be something it is not. It has been sold as something it isn't. No shit it ain't gonna work...because someone sold you a hammer and told you it was a wrench. Where I personally have problems with a lot of what is taught in the MA is the idea that it all works for fighting. For example: the idea that training drills -- designed to teach and instill certain qualities -- will teach you "how to fight" is commonly promoted. (Which BTW, I have seen taken to the extreme where someone believes that just knowing the MA means you know how to fight). Not only is "it trains you to fight" NOT a true statement, but it also blinds you to the value of that drill. And that's a bigger problem, because nature abhores a vacuum. If you don't understand the value -- and the limits -- of the drill, you're going to start making shit up. I mean why does everything you do in training have to work for fighting? That's not only an unrealistic expectation, but it blinds you to the other benefits of the martial arts. More importantly, it can also blind you to the fact that effective offense/defense is like an engine, it has many parts. Why does a drill have to be a complete engine? Why can't it be "Today we're looking at carburetors"? Or more specifically, "Today, in order to help you further understand carburetion and how caburetors work, we're going to look at model number..."? But again, advertising has made many people think that a drill is a complete engine...one that you can use to fight. Which, I would like to point out leaves the door wide open for the legitimate criticism that Dave has made. If something is being sold as something then it had damn well work for what it is advertised as. But Dave, in the same breath I must point out that just because something has been falsely advertised doesn't mean that it is worthless. It's value is in what it is, not what you want it to be. I was recently asked if I disagreed with anything that I had previously written. My response was "No...but I would change something." I stand by what I said. My critcism of what was being sold by the martial arts as effective for fighting still stands. In fact, now I can explain why it won't work much, much better than I ever could before. It didn't work then, it still doesn't work now, unfortunately the mythos of fighting has grown worse. What I would change, however, is my blanket condemnation of the martial arts because of instructors selling that flawed stuff as self-defense. Because I myself was so focused back then on fighting, I failed to see the subtle, but far greater values of MA training. My mistake was to condemn the whole because it didn't live up to the advertising of those who were trying to sell it for something it wasn't. Marc Animal MacYoung --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:44:54 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Gary Lam Chi Sau video To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree with Henry. Frankly, I think Mr. Lam's Wing Chun looked really nice. I have no idea if the gentleman can fight or not, but his technique looked good to me. I agree that cooperative demos can't be submitted as proof of effectivenes, but it's kinda hard to find willing demo partners to try to take your life and agree to have their butt's kicked in the name of proof (not too mention documenting it on film)...so cooperative demos are, for the most part, all we have. Dave Wong said: A few points: 1) The things we drill in class are designed to develop the attributes necessary for combat. These attributes include speed, timing and balance, so you shouldn't take the drills too literally because they are not fighting. They are simply a means to a technical end...nothing more. 2) If you watch Eric Knaus fight, his Pekiti Tersia footwork skills are clearly evident, so I'm not sure if I can agree with your general assesment of the lack of footwork in Dog Bros. fights. 3) Many of the things that are taught in class will not work too well against padded heads and hands. While I have always thought that what the Dog Bros. do is about as close to reality as you can safely get, certain key FMA techniques will never work against their fighters if they are wearing that sort of padding. I was always taught that the hands are primary targets in many FMAs and having said that, I don't think I have to tell you why the use of heavily padded gloves can change things radically and cause the fights to get a little more simplistic. -Steve Kohn sierraecho1@comcast.net wrote: I guess I got a different download than you Glints. I thought the power of the centerline strikes were pretty clear. I saw two cooperative demonstrations and two where the other guy did counter a couple of times. I think that's pretty realistic for a demonstration. I suppose you could go start a bar fight if you wanted to get into "real world testing" discussions. I'll pass. I don't think this guy Lam is going full speed either I think he has lots in reserve from watching the video. The idea I got was that the centerline geometry of the Chi Sau is very powerful and fast when practiced. Sticky hands is a great drill even for those who primarily wrestle as a martial art. I'd be willing to bet that if you researched around dojos and martial arts circles after a while you'd conclude that the hand speed and power of Wing Chun/FMA/and Western Boxing is very effective and definitely worth learning to add to a library of styles to draw from. For most I'd say a good fast, hands oriented style is the best option to use as a base for all their martial arts skills. Oh yeah and taking a cheap shot at someone's language or voice tone is not cool. It only leads people to beleive that you participate in other ignorant ways such as racism and elitism. I hope that's not the case. For the other follow up email I'd have to say that the big guy isn't always going to win you might always run into those better or luckier than you but realistic, open-minded practice and awareness improves your chances greatly. Peace and Dojo grease. Henry > > This video is hilarious ! First, the teacher sounds like he's > almost on the verge of tears. Then, he faces pushes his student > a couple of times with enough force to throw him in to a padded wall. > Boom, slump. > This could be topped if he were to push his student into a swimming pool, > then take a sip of drink. > > On a serious note, I never understood how cooperative demonstrations > could be submitted as proof of effectiveness. The student never actually > hits the teacher, and even after the technical sequence, the student rises for > yet another round. Thus, the effectiveness of the sequence of moves is > left to the imagination. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest