Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:36:59 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #384 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Natural Fighters (buz_ed_alias@mac.com) 2. Re: Natural fighters (Todd Ellner) 3. Seminar this Sunday (jay de leon) 4. Touching base (Tucker, Kevin) 5. question on Atienza Kali (tenrec) 6. Re: Natural Fighters (bgdebuque) 7. RE: Re: Natural Fighters (Mitch McKee) 8. Re: question on Atienza Kali (Aaron Alejandro) 9. natural fighter (noirpalm) 10. Re: question on Atienza Kali (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: buz_ed_alias@mac.com Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:16:51 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've got a brother who I'd call a natural fighter, among other things. He's basically a one-percenter biker type, albeit one who favors BMWs over Harleys. Back in the day he lived in Kenosha, WI working at a fertilizer factory loading 50 and 100 bags on to pallets 10 hours a day. Back then Kenosha was a pretty rough town, the local AMC auto plant was slowly closing down, unemployment was high, and drug use rampant; you didn't have to look very hard to find trouble there and then. I remember one time I was visiting him and noticed an oddly textured oblong bruise on the side of his face. I asked him what happened, he explained that he'd closed out the Midnight Hour, the local biker bar, and was walking the mile or so home with his load on when he got to a blind corner a couple blocks from his house. As he told it: "I came to the corner and saw this jungle boot coming at my head and the next thing I know, blam, I'm on the ground. I look up and see this boot about to stomp my head so I punched straight up as hard as I could right between the guys legs. He went down so I got up, kicked him a couple times, and went home and crashed." What a lotta folks would turn into a hair raising story was an end to a typical night's drinking in my bro's book, barely worth mentioning as the outcome was benign. Though this is doubtless tangential, something else I've noticed about my brother and other folks who have a natural ability to unceremoniously stomp people flat is a habit of pattern recognition that is hard to call anything but full blown paranoia. To this day if we are out driving and see, say, three of the same kind of delivery vehicle in a ten minute period he just assumes it's some sort of surveillance following him. I hate hanging out in bars with my bro and people like him 'cause it seems like I spend most my time trying to talk them out of preemptively smacking someone who they think is looking for trouble. My guess is this sort of pattern recognition is a survival mechanism that works well out in nasty, brutish, and short nature, but that doesn't work so well in more civilized climes. Being so tuned into your environment that you can sense when there is a grizzly up the trail or an ambush around the corner certainly confers survival benefits. Transplant that to suburbia and assume anyone who drops a fork at the Red Lobster is going for an ankle holster and you have a problem on your hands. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:56:28 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The naturals don't impress me much. The ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the naturals' lunch. When the guy with loads of talent gets to the end of where native ability will take him (or hits 30, same thing in many ways...) he'll often quit. The guy who's had to work for it the whole time will keep on going until he gets over the next hill. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 16:42:21 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Seminar this Sunday Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Catch the last Tipunan (Gathering) mini-seminar for the year 2005, with a special double feature, featuring two of Tipunan's vaunted instructors, Topher Ricketts (Kali Ilustrisimo) and Roger Agbulos (Lameco Eskrima). Limited space. Call now. Thanks for the support. Jay de Leon Sunday / November 20, 2005 Time: 1:00pm to 4:30pm TOLUCA LAKE TENNIS CLUB & THE SPORTS CENTER 6711 Forest Lawn Drive Los Angeles, CA 90068 Contact: Roger Agbulos Tel: 818-335-4265 Ryan Barreras Tel: 818-389-6310 Cost: $55.00 or call for a group discount. Parking is free. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 20:44:37 -0600 From: "Tucker, Kevin" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Touching base Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I stumbled upon the FMA website serendipitously while researching a book on Kali, and I wanted to say that I think that you and your team have done an outstanding job of providing an invaluable resource for the Filipino martial arts. Very nice work - it is appreciated. K.Tucker --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 03:13:13 +0000 From: tenrec To: inayan digest Subject: [Eskrima] question on Atienza Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Natahey fellow FMA afficionados! Just a quick question: what was Atienza originally trained in before he formulated his own style? tenrec tenrec@avcorner.com tenrec2@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:16:09 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think FMA oldtimers have a term for natural fighters - "may corazon". Literally, this means one who has a "fighting heart". In the FMA tradition, one has a "fighting heart" if one can remain calm and be able to function normally even under life-threatening situations. The fatalistic tradition of believing in "swerte" (luck/fate/destiny) normally give Filipinos an advantage in coping with life-threatening situations. If somebody dies in a shootout in the Philippines, for example, Filipinos would often say that: "while the bullet was still in the factory, the victim's name was already written on it by destiny". So, why should one worry about the outcome of a fight? It was supposedly already decided by destiny even before you were born. Of course, such things are easier said than done. The instinct to avoid pain or survive always appears to be the predisposition of the majority of a given population, Filipinos included. Hence, the special mention given by FMA oldtimers to people with "corazon". I think the traditional way of testing one's fighting heart is to participate in a death match. Mere survival is not enough. How you conducted yourself during the match (ie. in the face of certain death) is more important. Interestingly, whether you were able to kill or not your opponent also appears to be of secondary importance. Perhaps, it is really a match against yourself and your inner fears... From: "abreton@juno.com" abreton@juno.com I think their observation is borne out by the discussion here: there's a directness to natural fighters. It may be that the same "lack of stress chatter" also produces a person who can master coordinated tasks more easily. Andy -- "Stephen Lamade" wrote: Jay de Leon wrote: "Isn't there a "neurological" aspect to the natural fighter? Not just a willingness to fight, as noirpalm suggests. Not so much physical, like bigger or stronger. Not just an accumulation of experience. More like it seems he has more natural attributes--more quick muscles, quicker reaction, more "fighting" coordination, etc. Something like seeing some people dance naturally, while some have the proverbial two left feet." I know someone who just seems to "see" things quicker - so you always seem to be working slower, harder, etc., while he just sails along... --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mitch McKee" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What you describe is not "natural", but learned from being raised in that culture. Mitch McKee -----Original Message----- From: bgdebuque [mailto:bgdebuque@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 10:16 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters I think FMA oldtimers have a term for natural fighters - "may corazon". Literally, this means one who has a "fighting heart". In the FMA tradition, one has a "fighting heart" if one can remain calm and be able to function normally even under life-threatening situations. The fatalistic tradition of believing in "swerte" (luck/fate/destiny) normally give Filipinos an advantage in coping with life-threatening situations. If somebody dies in a shootout in the Philippines, for example, Filipinos would often say that: "while the bullet was still in the factory, the victim's name was already written on it by destiny". So, why should one worry about the outcome of a fight? It was supposedly already decided by destiny even before you were born. Of course, such things are easier said than done. The instinct to avoid pain or survive always appears to be the predisposition of the majority of a given population, Filipinos included. Hence, the special mention given by FMA oldtimers to people with "corazon". I think the traditional way of testing one's fighting heart is to participate in a death match. Mere survival is not enough. How you conducted yourself during the match (ie. in the face of certain death) is more important. Interestingly, whether you were able to kill or not your opponent also appears to be of secondary importance. Perhaps, it is really a match against yourself and your inner fears... From: "abreton@juno.com" abreton@juno.com I think their observation is borne out by the discussion here: there's a directness to natural fighters. It may be that the same "lack of stress chatter" also produces a person who can master coordinated tasks more easily. Andy -- "Stephen Lamade" wrote: Jay de Leon wrote: "Isn't there a "neurological" aspect to the natural fighter? Not just a willingness to fight, as noirpalm suggests. Not so much physical, like bigger or stronger. Not just an accumulation of experience. More like it seems he has more natural attributes--more quick muscles, quicker reaction, more "fighting" coordination, etc. Something like seeing some people dance naturally, while some have the proverbial two left feet." I know someone who just seems to "see" things quicker - so you always seem to be working slower, harder, etc., while he just sails along... _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] question on Atienza Kali Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:32:18 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just like studying the origins of most martial arts....good question. I guess my perspective is not a study of its orgin (although important in respect and historical preservation) but what the art/system offers today -- its effectiveness today. By the way, this arts got both - foundation and effectiveness. However, I've always felt that the best answer is that closest to the source. So with that said, I would encourage you to go to www.atienzakali.com and contact either Guro Allain Atienza, Guro Carl Atienza or Guro Daryll Atienza. I'm sure they can provide the most insightful answer to your inquiry. Respectfully, Aaron Alejandro ----- Original Message ----- From: "tenrec" To: "inayan digest" Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:13 PM Subject: [Eskrima] question on Atienza Kali > Natahey fellow FMA afficionados! > > Just a quick question: what was Atienza originally trained in before he > formulated his own style? > > tenrec > tenrec@avcorner.com > tenrec2@yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:39:08 -0800 (PST) From: noirpalm To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] natural fighter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It kind of sucks because on the one hand the natural fighter thread and some of animal macyoungs previous posts are saying that some people 1- are more willing to fight for whatever reason 2- will start fighing with less " ceremony or warm up" 3- the people who are more inclined to fight/ violence may have an edge due to real encounters / being used to violence 4- you need to learn how to flip your own switch instantly 5- you have to be aware to keep yourself out of a situation where you have to flip your switch 6- number 5 is alot easier than number 4 unless someones threatening my mother --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] question on Atienza Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:07:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Just like studying the origins of most martial arts....good question. I > guess my perspective is not a study of its orgin (although important in > respect and historical preservation) but what the art/system offers today -- > its effectiveness today. By the way, this arts got both - foundation and > effectiveness. > > However, I've always felt that the best answer is that closest to the > source. So with that said, I would encourage you to go to > www.atienzakali.com and contact either Guro Allain Atienza, Guro Carl > Atienza or Guro Daryll Atienza. I'm sure they can provide the most > insightful answer to your inquiry. Now that is double talk if I've ever seen it. Do you the answer or do you not know the answer? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest