Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:06:20 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #385 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Rapido Realismo Kali (isagani abon) 2. Atienza Kali (Steven Lefebvre) 3. atienza kali (Stephen Lamade) 4. Re: question on Atienza Kali (Aaron Alejandro) 5. Where's the Art? DB Gathering of the Pack (Marc Denny) 6. Natural Fighter (Lance Cross) 7. Re: atienza kali (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 00:27:25 -0800 (PST) From: isagani abon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Rapido Realismo Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rapido Realismo Intensive Workshop I just wanna let you know that the Punong Guro Henry Espera, Founder of the Rapido Realismo Kali are planning to hold it’s 12 Days Instructor Candidate Workshop/Camp ( for those interested to learn and teach the Arts, a parts of the Instructor Program and Training Group Program of the Rapido Realismo Kali) for the Arts expansion here in Manila, Philippines on March 2006. If anyone of you are interested to found his own Rapido Realismo kali Group in your area and become a training leader, let me know. Contact me soon or feel free to contact us in the site or forum found below And Register as soon as the end of January 2006. Date: March 7-18, 2006 ( subject for changes) Training/Workshop Fee : USD $500 ( Register before February 2006 USD $400) bring you buddy and split the cost in to half) Training Schedule: 8am-12nn rest for an hour 1:30pm-5pm Location: Silang, Cavite, Philippines Included in the Package: 6-8 hours Training a day 3 Official Training Shirt 2 Wooden Dagger 6 Rattan Sticks 1 year Membership with Rapido Realismo International Affiliation Certificate Group Leader Certificate Optional : To those who want an advance training, Punong guro Henry Espera will select a dedicated individuals to be train for another week or two for free for after the workshop for further Certification. (we can find a nice food and place/Hotel accomodations for a very reasonable value for you.) * We need at least 10 ( max. 20) interested individuals who wanted to learn and start his own group in order for us to materialize this plan. Training will be intense and Combative. A Blade Oriented Arts. Bring your Own training weapon, your Hearts and Determination to learn. For more info contact Us. combatpamuok@yahoo.com ** The Training are design for those interested to found his Rapido Realismo Kali Training Group and become a Group leader/Trainer who will start his own group on his place or country. Goodluck! Gumagalang, Isagani www.angelfire.com/art2/rapidorealismo http://rapidorealismo.netfreehost.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:15:44 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Atienza Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Edgar "Butch" Atienza, was one of the early students of GT Gaje in NYC. He was also a close friend to Master Bo Sayoc and Tuhon Chris Sayoc. The following is a brief piece from the Atienza Kali Website "Atienza Kali was developed by the late Edgar “Butch” Atienza in New York City. As a Kali practitioner and experienced street fighter he saw the need for a fighting system that addressed the challenges one encountered on the street, including defense against armed assailants and multiple attackers. He began to modify techniques and drills according to practical experience and refined his training methods for over three decades. The result is an extremely effective system that emphasizes intensive footwork and assaults against multiple attackers, with techniques in empty hand, blade, and impromptu weapons" I agree with Aaron, check out the website and give one of the Atienza Guros a call. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:42:55 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] atienza kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net tenrec asked "Just a quick question: what was Atienza originally trained in before he formulated his own style?" The Atienza brothers were trained from an early age by their father, who was a friend/student of Leo Gaje when he lived in Queens, New York. Best, Steve Lamade --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] question on Atienza Kali Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:43:10 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Double talk? Please accept my apology if it came across that way. To the contrary, I was referring to what I have witnessed as two mindsets toward martial arts -- I believe both are important and should be explored if you are going to practice the art. One, get the origins, history, etc. -- the best information is usually closest to the source (which I acknowledged in my response). Second, (while you may be researching, studying the origins, etc.) train with the material to see if it is useful and effective -- again, this is what I was referring to in my response. In my initial post, I provided the following: Some history: Atienza Kali was developed by the late Edgar "Butch" Atienza in New York City. As a Kali practitioner and experienced street fighter he saw the need for a fighting system that addressed the challenges one encountered on the street, including defense against armed assailants and multiple attackers. He began to modify techniques and drills according to practical experience and refined his training methods for over three decades. The result is an extremely effective system that emphasizes intensive footwork and assaults against multiple attackers, with techniques in empty hand, blade, and impromptu weapons. I don't know if this provides the specifics that was requested by the writer. Thus, I referred them to the Atienza Kali website (www.atienzakali.com) and the directing Guros. With much respect, Guro Ray, I was not trying to create an appearance of double talk, but more importantly encourage the reader to experience and get some training in the system and learn its effective value while at the same time discovering its origins. Hope this clarifies. Respectfully, Aaron Alejandro ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] question on Atienza Kali >> Just like studying the origins of most martial arts....good question. I >> guess my perspective is not a study of its orgin (although important in >> respect and historical preservation) but what the art/system offers >> today -- >> its effectiveness today. By the way, this arts got both - foundation and >> effectiveness. >> >> However, I've always felt that the best answer is that closest to the >> source. So with that said, I would encourage you to go to >> www.atienzakali.com and contact either Guro Allain Atienza, Guro Carl >> Atienza or Guro Daryll Atienza. I'm sure they can provide the most >> insightful answer to your inquiry. > > Now that is double talk if I've ever seen it. > > Do you the answer or do you not know the answer? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:45:13 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Where's the Art? DB Gathering of the Pack Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: The question presented started with: I'm with you here. Make you wonder how all the > co-operative drills we do in class actually could be > useful, eh? > > Yep. The only way to validate it's usefulness is in a > fight. Just take a look at Dog Brothers fighting > tapes. All the tapping, footwork...where're they? Most > of the time it's like two guys keep hitting each other > till one guy drops. Seems like what they're showing is > most of the things you practice in the class are > useless. > > Oh, and in one of the Dog Brother tapes, they show a > 240 lbs former football player crushing his poor > opponents. The point they want to bring out is: if you > don't have power in your strikes, how do you think you > can stop somebody like that? And I think: Geez, that > got to be demoralizing. All the smaller guys and girls > could stop training right now cuz' they might never > have that kind of power. Scary, eh? > > OK, now I said it. Flame away. There were several answers to this. Here are some thoughts of mine: At a "Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack", there is a very wide range of skills and experience. The men fighting are learning how to apply what they have learned-- what we may call "the fighter's understanding". Yes, some of the fights are utterly devoid of skills acquired in training. Plenty of fights are at a good level-- and some are at an exceptional level. Something I have come to deeply appreciate from my experience in editing our videos and from listening to comments like the one that opens this post, is just how easy it is for people to not see what is going on. IT HAPPENS REALLY FAST-- a lot of training can get condensed in a very, very brief amount of time. Even with all my years of experience, I often need to watch a fight at very slo-motion (sometimes as slowly as 10% of real time) to be able to see what happened. To the extent that the viewer lacks fighting experience as well as the benefits of slo-motion-- as happens when seeing the action live-- it becomes really easy to see a high level move as just some waving of sticks around. Concerning the drills: Some of the drills are useless, some are useful for some people and not others, and some are relevant for just about everyone. When one fighter is better than another, sometimes it is because of the skills he has acquired via this sort of training. I certainly credit the training I have received as enabling me in my fighting. Instead, many people train with misunderstanding of what a given drill is for, train it with lack of intent, and then blame the drill for their poor results! One of the core misunderstandings is that many people think these drills will help them become fighters. NO, they will help you develop fighting skills, which is not the same thing. You may have skills, but if you lack heart, that will not matter. Yes there are "naturals" in this world, but most people require a process to connect with their fighting heart. The training to bring out the practitioner's fighting heart is different from training for technical skill. Next point: You may have skills, but if you have weak links in your chain, your chain is weak. For example if you train for media and/or corto techniques, but lack science in getting to these ranges when you go to fight you may have a feeling of your training letting you down. NO, you just didn't know how to get to those ranges in balance with your eyes open and your mind right. Next point is headgear: Of course the fencing masks make a difference, especially the older and flimsier ones that the first of us coming up used. That said, UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, IMHO it can be said that they are more dangerous than no headgear because they enable the will to strike fully at the opponent's head. What sane, moral, skilled fighter would strike fully at the unprotected head-- indeed the face-- of a man with a stick? Because we do not keep score (a profoundly liberating experience btw) if someone is hit what would probably be a finalizing shot, we keep going anyway. Sometimes a man's ego may blind him to what really happened, but speaking for myself my attitude is to take seriously any shot that has its consequences diminished by the fencing mask in my assessment of the lessons of the fight. Be clear that people can and do get dropped through the fencing masks. Concussions happen. Next point is handgear: Over time the trend has been towards lighter and lighter handgear. Several fighters now use what we can call "ultralights": football lineman gloves, baseball batting gloves, and the like. The protection from impact offered by these is virtually nothing-- they serve to allow striking to the fencing masks-- so we have a growing body of experience that says that in the fighting state many handshots are not always incapacitating, even when the hand is broken. Anyway, what to make of the experience is up to each of us. Our "Dog Brothers Fall Gathering of the Pack" is this coming Sunday at the R1 Gym (formerly RAW Gym) in El Segundo. Go to http://dogbrothers.com/wrapper.php?file=gathering.htm for details-- including a map. To see who is fighting, go to http://dogbrothers.com/article_info.php?articles_id=3 (if I count correctly we are at 34 fighters right now) This particular Gathering is being filmed by Original Productions with an eye to it being a pilot for a reality TV series. OP is an established successful company (currently airing "Monster Garage" and "Monster House") with good connections to SPIKE TV. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Lance Cross" To: Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:54:39 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Natural Fighter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In response to Todd Ellner, I agree with you. Let's not talk about "the one" that's at the rare end of the bell curve. But most of us fall into the middle of the curve. Doing some research into military training methods, I found that many candidates who are "the pluggers" are chosen over people who have it come to them easily because they show they can handle long term stress, commitment to task, they usually have vitrually no bad temperment and make jokes while the stress was on. These I suppose are universal qualities that recruiters are looking for in combat successful people. My personal experience is that in the martial arts, the "pluggers" ones who really have to work at it, usually learn to use the material as a tool and rely on what they learn. I found that the physically overfit jump into the first couple of belts with enthusiasm, don't really learn much, and get burned out at the belts that start to become difficult for them. They have not learned the physical difficulty, the emotional requirements to work just above the failure mark etc.. The pluggers can take all difficult challenges in training as everything is difficult, they work through it, look for hallmarks of improvment and usually make the best teachers later on. "Fighting" and Combat for long term success requires a great deal of commitment, stength and emotional endurance. Try and find this in a natural fighter. In quickie fighting, having to fight one on one, fights may last in the seconds. In mass brawling, fights may last minutes and in riots fights may lasts hours or days. All may have the same type of fighting but the emotional endurance and the physical nature of the fight are much different. Another good topic, now we have discussed "the one" natural fighter are people at the other end of the bell curve. I had one student that had an unusuality to him, he could only stay upright with his eye's open! If he closed his eyes he would fall down. I asked his father and was told that he was wired differently internally. Normally the theory is that people have a balance between their ears and a bearing from their nose, eyes (even if you have just one) calculate distance. Each sensory orgran including touch helps us move, see and react each having their own speciality, not necesarilty unique to the organ. What they thought was that his normal sense of balance didn't work well at various degress, it actually helped to work against him (perhaps unbalanced, or falsely readable internally) so he relied on his eyes to keep him level. If horizontal lines that were not set to "level" were around him, he would walk crooked and lean while walking etc.. He mostly used vertical lines if people were around, he would base his up and down to their up and down. While sparring he would immediately become confused with the changing shapes and lines. -Lance This was sure a challenge to teach! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.2/170 - Release Date: 11/15/05 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] atienza kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:00:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > The Atienza brothers were trained from an early age by their father, who was > a friend/student of Leo Gaje when he lived in Queens, New York. There we go. Good info. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest