Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:19:15 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #388 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re; natural fighters (iPat) 2. Natural fighters (lunghsing@aol.com) 3. Re:Naturals and Pluggers (Jonathan Kessler) 4. Re: Natural Fighters (Todd Ellner) 5. Thanx Guys (Peter Gow) 6. Filipino Martial Arts Tournament - 11/19 (Four Winds Martial Arts) 7. Re: Re; natural fighters (Steve Kohn) 8. Re: RE: Natural fighter co-worker (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:21:33 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re; natural fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As an instructor, thank the looord for all the unnatural people out there! Not only do they appreciate the effort it takes to be 'natural' they keep me in business! ; ) On 11/16/05, Marc MacYoung wrote: > > Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Folks let us NOT mistake training for fighting. > More > > -- > iPat > "Intellect and intelligence do not go together. Intelligence is obtained > only when the heart and mind reach an agreement." Krishnamurti --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:44:42 -0500 From: lunghsing@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Natural fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I find the concept of the natural fighter to be an interesting one. I think the components of a natural fighter can be devided into "physical" and "mental". There are people who are naturally more gifted in the areas of strength, speed, and agility. That, alas, was never my lot in life. Then there are those who have a mental edge - they are tough, determined, aggressive people and something about physical combat throws a "switch" in their heads. And they don't have to be scary all the time. Most of the time they can be easy going, relatively innocuous people - but that capacity for physical violence lies just beneath the surface. I've known a lot of cops that fit that profile. Me included. Steve --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:45:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Naturals and Pluggers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark, When you reply to the statement " >The ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the naturals' lunch." are you understanding it as saying "Anyone who trains in martial arts will wind up being able to kick a natural fighters ass"? Because that seems to be the statement to which you're responding. If you read it as "Sometimes a person who trains develops enough skill in fighting that they develop into a successful fighter", would your reply be the same? I think that you have an extremely valid point to make, but sometimes you state it so strongly that the actual point gets lost in the vehemence of the message. JK --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:00:38 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, about a year ago you got onto your high horse with me. At the time there were things that were much more important than listen to you woofing. When you're in a fight for your life (which I was) the yapping of small dogs defending their dinner bowl fades to insignificance. Your latest screed was another attempt to puff yourself up by heaping scorn on someone you can't get anything from. It's typical of the way you operate. Irritating, but not worth getting angry over. I'm still not going to go through all the words you've written rebutting every single misconception and distortion. The way you spill ink on a page, by the time someone has cleaned up one mess you've made a dozen more. For now I'll hit the high points. First, don't knock training until you've tried it. Yes, I know you are Marc Animal" MacYoung, Master of t3h d34dl33 str33t and author of a million books From talking to people who've been around you for a long time it's clear you've never actually put in the grunt to get past the beginning of anything you lay claim to . Your website is full of big names and things that you've dabbled in. But how many of them have you taken further than a seminar or two, maybe a year of classes? I doubt that you've gone past the surface in anything except the SCA fighting and a bit of Wing Chun. Most recently you had the chance to benefit from two men who could tear most people to shreds without raising their heart rates - Stevan Plinck and Tristan Sustrino. You used their names for a little cachet and added the possibly trendy Silat notch to your belt. You didn't actually learn anything significant from either of them. They didn't get where they were by being superior mutants. They did it through long hours and dedication. The point I made about naturals and pluggers still stands. In anything worth doing, cooking, carpentry, making love, solving equations or fighting, native ability will only carry you so far. Past that it's hard work and heart that see you through. If every fight is to the death I suppose that it all depends on who's got the best genetics. But that isn't even how it works in the mean streets of Mombasa. The ones who have lots of natural talent succeed early on. Eventually they come to the end of where that will take them. After the first real setback most of them crap out. The world is full of guys who coulda been contendahs. The ones who can lose, pick themselves up, learn from what happened and come back for more are the ones who win in the end. Maybe they don't have absolutely optimal fast-twitch muscle proportions. It isn't effortless for them. But they're the ones who will go the distance. Other places you make much of people who would kill you as soon as look at you. I'm not terribly frightened of someone just because he's willing to hurt me. I'm damned respectful of someone who's willing to get badly hurt if that's what it takes to jack me up. Then again, when most of us go into bars that cater to races other than our own we don't make disparaging remarks about the women. So we slide through life without inciting too much fury. Maybe you're exceptionally talented. By all reports you have some natural speed and a little more strength than a guy would guess from looking at you. You have a few tricks up your sleeve. "Sooner or later," as one very dangerous man said to me, "you lose your speed, you lose your strength and everybody learns your tricks. Then you find out if you're any damned good or not." I'm not a natural. Most of the people I know aren't naturals. We don't have superhuman speed or strength. And we're not sociopaths who will suddenly go to all out murderous rage over a cigarette. So I'm not really all that interested in naturals except to figure out how to deal with them. It's more important to be the best I can, so I take my cues from the ones who are good because of what they do, not what they were handed by life on a platter. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:38:18 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Thanx Guys Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, Thanx for the background also thanx for the book - "The Gift of Fear" - will have to check it out. Also you raised a very strong argument re: We all only have one mother - If the guys mother loved him and protected him then its no wonder that the father was put back onto the path. Mike, Point taken and I agree. Marc Macyoung, Absolutely correct there are some very sick individuals out there in society and unfortunately martial arts seems to attract them. Also a very valid point was put forward on the invincibilty factor sold by many martial art schools. Actually you don't even have to go to a martial arts training centre to view sicos, just have a look around in the work place I am sure that you have all experienced some indiviual who has gotten themselves into a position of power and the power is controlling that individual ...power mania..and that person then abuses an employee because they can .. no reason just pleasure. Enjoy Life and Train Hard. Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Four Winds Martial Arts" To: Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:55:12 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Filipino Martial Arts Tournament - 11/19 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Anyone around Florida this weekend Jeet Kune Do Institute is sponsoring 2 events in Winter Park. WEKAF style sparring Saturday, November 19 at 10am (Equipment provided if needed). Doce Pares seminar following on Sunday, November 20 at 10am - stick, edged weapon and empty hand. Master Tom Sipin WEKAF USA Director Doce Pares 9th degree For info on these events call 407-529-7669 For further info, visit www.wekafusa.com or http://www.wekafusa.com/about/tsipin.html Four Winds Martial Arts 10633 W. Oklahoma Avenue West Allis, WI 53227 414.541.3656 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:42:23 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re; natural fighters To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, So I have to ask: 1) With the exception of free advertising (which I honestly don't fault you for. I too believe in capitalism), what exactly are you trying to prove in this forum year after year? Maybe you've missed your calling and should have become a missionary so you could hit more people over the head with your concepts. 2) Are you aware that most normal people don't go to great lengths to put themselves in bad situations with horrible people as you do? Real fighting experience is a very difficult thing for civilized, sober adults to come by if they don't do work in law enforcement or security. I'm thinking you should hang out in better neighborhoods. I eagerly await your 12 page reply to these 2 questions. -Steve "The Peaceful Biped" Kohn Marc MacYoung wrote: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Folks let us NOT mistake training for fighting. More importantly, let us NEVER intentionally assume that they are one in the same. Because that is a dangerous self-delusion. >From: "Todd Ellner" >The naturals don't impress me much. Then you haven't faced any other than in the safety of your imagination. I have faced a number of them and, quite frankly they scared the living bejezes out of me. You go in with that gut sinking knowledge that -- no matter if you are alone or with back up -- "ohhhhh this is gonna hurt." These guys are Dangerous, with a capital D. And they WILL get a piece out of you. This ain't no case of you being a pro football player playing a peewee football team because of your super deadly fighting system. This is facing another professional player. Someone who is skilled, nasty, mean and is usually extremely adept at setting you with nasty nasties that you don't see. And no matter what the outcome, it's gonna hurt. These guys are the reason I came up with the slogan: Don't be so impressed about what you can do to him that you overlook what he can do to you. That is a common failing among with those with more training than experience and those who think they have not just an advantage, but superiority. Oh BTW, a lot of the naturals I knew, didn't pick on mice. They went out looking for someone who would be a challenge to them. So the badder you are, the badder you attract. That's why the pro vs. peewee league analogy. >The ones who get my respect are the >pluggers who end up eating the naturals' lunch. When the guy with loads of >talent gets to the end of where native ability will take him (or hits 30, >same thing in many ways...) he'll often quit. To quote an old Garfield cartoon, "Big deal, at the sound of the gun it was Lion 19 Villagers 1 Before these guys go down they put down a whole lot of other people...many of whom thought they were naturals until they were demonstrated to be pluggers. Using your own example, that's what? Let's say 20-25 years of putting people down before he "retires?" Or more realistically get taken out, either from behind or by an equally dangerous individual? That's a hell of a run. But, since you are obviously confusing training with experience, let's do the math. That is what 20-25 years worth of training/experience? On top of natural talent? Isn't that longer than you've been in the martial arts? Or does his training, experience and natural talent not count? While you may not be impressed with it, don't try to sell the idea that a plugger with training will succeed against these guys. Because quite frankly until you get to the sound of the gun, the plugger villagers ain't doing so hot. Being a plugger in some kind of dangerous and deadly fighting style does NOT prepare you for the danger and ferocity these guys can muster, nor the speed at which they can apply it. As Octavius said in "Rome" to Pullo (a natural) "The graveyards are filled with adequate swordsmen." And FYI, while a lot of these guys do go down, a good number of them just get old. And there's a reason they do. Like Raymond's Tio Casimiro -- now there's a story about the difference between training and application/experience. Having said this, again it comes back to the -- oh so denied in MA circles --fact that training is not the same as doing. If you wish to commend someone for their dedication to training then that is fine and dandy. It is an admirable trait and worthy of respect -- especially if the individual has begun to plumb the depths of his/her art instead of just fixating on the fighting aspect. As this thread has pointed out these kinds of individuals often do have many problems that result in them ending up in less than sterling circumstances. Many of their traits are not admirable. That having been said, whether you respect them or not, these people are very dangerous. As such they need to be dealt with accordingly and should not be underestimated. However, while you can choose to think whatever fantasy you want about "pluggers" taking them down because of training, DON'T peddle to others. That is a dangerous misconception to promote to people. I say this because your words WILL be taken and run with by people who want to believe that their training will prepare them for being the gunshot that ends the lion's game. When, in fact, if they ever found themselves in that situation their training is more likely to make them one of the 19 villagers on the lion's side of the scoreboard -- because instead of running like hell they opted to try to stand and fight. These nasties do exist out there and if it is your choice to dismiss them because you don't have to deal with them on a regular basis (or if you only deal with them with you in the pitchfork waving crowd), that is your prerogative. But don't encourage others to make the same mistake -- especially by talking BS about pluggers taking these kind of fighters down in their own arena. Marc Animal MacYoung _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Natural fighter co-worker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:48:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Well, interestingly we rarely talked about his childhood other than he spent > most of it out hunting and running a trap line. At least this part sounds like an ideal childhood... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest