Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:41:21 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #390 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Natural fighters (Marc MacYoung) 2. Re: Boy found dead (jay de leon) 3. RE: Boy found dead (Ken Borowiec) 4. Natural Fighter (Lance Cross) 5. Re: natural fighter (A. Van Meter) 6. Re: Natural fighters (Marc MacYoung) 7. Re: Natural fighters (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 23:36:09 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve Kohn asked > 1) With the exception of free advertising (which I honestly don't fault > you for. I too believe in capitalism), what >exactly are you trying to > prove in this forum year after year? Maybe you've missed your calling and > should have >become a missionary so you could hit more people over the > head with your concepts. Well to start with that violence is an immensely complex issue. An issue so vast and complex that a) there are no simple answers b) nobody -- including myself -- knows everything and c) just because you study a martial art style does not mean you are prepared to handle everything that there is in the complicated, varied and multi-dimensional subject of violence. Now while personally I don't give a damn if someone believes the martial arts prepares him for everything he will encounter out there, where I do get fiesty is when someone starts selling it to some poor innocent who doesn't know any better. You can get killed for your own refusal to accept the complexity of violence, but I'm sorry selling someone else a superman suit isn't cool in my book. Mr. Ellner's comment, was totally out of touch with the reality of the dangers that these people pose. I mean stop and think about it for a second. Who's promoting the idea that a plugger can take one of these guys if he only practices hard and long enough? Who's trying to sell something here? It sure'n hell isn't me. If it ain't your job to face these dudes, I tell folks to run like hell and get help. Better yet, avoid them altogether. They are dangerous. Or maybe I didn't state that strongly enough? That's the problem with trying to communicate to people who want to believe that they could take these guys. It is also really difficult not to become "preachy" when there are people who actively promote the idea that pluggers can take them "if only..." > 2) Are you aware that most normal people don't go to great lengths to put > themselves in bad situations with horrible people as you do? Real fighting > experience is a very difficult thing for civilized, sober adults to come > by if they don't do work in law enforcement or security. I'm thinking you > should hang out in better neighborhoods. Yes I am aware. Why do you think I spend so much time telling people how to avoid crime and violence? Incidentally, teaching crime avoidance, personal safety and home security measures is where I make the majority of my money -- not in teaching my deadly and ultimate fighting system. (Which doesn't even exist). That means lectures for corporations and organizations where I'm in a suit and tie. I am also aware that society tends to scorn and isolate individuals who fight as "damaged goods" Let's be careful here though, if in martial arts circles you bring in things like society's view of violence and people who participate in it, you'll be accused of preaching and being pedantic and over the top. After all, isn't the ability to fight all you need ? M --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 00:21:31 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Boy found dead To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This can very well be a case of one of those unfortunate teen/kids choking games (self-strangulation). Jay de Leon Ray wrote: Fowarding... ??? --- Not Sure how they ruled out foul play... something is very strange... Dave _________________________________________________________________________ Boy found dead with toy weapon Edmonton Sun ^ | Nov 15, 2005 | BROOKES MERRITT An Edmonton family is grieving the loss of their middle child today, after the 10-year-old boy was found dead yesterday morning in the family's north-end home. EMS Supt. Wes Bogdane said emergency crews found the boy with a pair of toy nunchuks wrapped around his neck. Nunchuks are a martial arts weapon, made up of two sticks joined by a short length of rope or chain. Paramedics responded to 12720 48 St. shortly after 7:30 a.m. yesterday, and said Christopher White was dead when they got there. The medical examiner's office is investigating the circumstances of the death, and a cause has yet to be determined, said spokesman Ron Jacobs. Police have ruled out foul play, and say it appears Chris may have died as the result of an accident. The White family declined comment yesterday, but a neighbour said Chris was active and full of energy. "He was involved in his school and he loved martial arts," said Doug Lunden, who lives down the street from the Whites. "He just won a silver medal in a martial arts competition." Lunden expressed grief for the family, and hoped Chris's two surviving sisters, one older and one younger, could help his father cope with the loss of his son. "They've got those two girls and they've had support all day," Lunden said. Another neighbour, who asked not to be named, was shocked to hear the news of Chris's death. "He was only 10. I just can't imagine it. How horrible," she said. "My prayers are with them." Crisis counsellors were offering support to White's Grade 5 classmates yesterday at Father Leo Green School, and a letter reporting the boy's death was sent home to parents. The report of toy nunchuks wrapped around the boy's throat raised eyebrows in the local martial arts community. Nunchuks - the real kind - are a prohibited weapon in Canada, said Edmonton Police Insp. Dennis Pysyk. Craig Stanley, a seventh-degree tae kwon-do master and one of Canada's top martial arts performers, said weapons training is uncommon in martial arts - especially for young children. "It's normally reserved for kung fu training," said Stanley, who runs the Phoenix Tae Kwon-Do club in St. Albert. "Taekwondo means 'the way of the hand and foot,' and karate uses open-hand techniques." But Stanley said some martial arts clubs do train with weapons - especially when it draws in customers. "It's usually instructors who need to bring in more students, because weapons are attractive." Hong Park Tae Kwon-Do College instructor Patrick Gallagher, 20, says his club trains with foam-wrapped nunchuks. "Usually the chain isn't long enough to wrap around somebody's neck," he said. "I've never heard of anybody strangling themselves with a nunchuk before." Dr. Louis Francescutti, an injury prevention advocate, said he's never heard of such a tragedy, but that "injuries are the leading cause of death in kids." =================================================================== Good Judgement comes from experience, which comes from Poor Judgement. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Boy found dead Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:08:27 -0500 From: "Ken Borowiec" To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Accidental My butt. Even if it wrapped around his neck, he couldn't just unwrap them? My friends and I have used toy nunchuks and with my skills believe me you can't knock yourself out. I'm so bad with them I've beat myself repeatedly with toys and real ones. Knocked myself out with real ones. After a few KO's I gave up. Ken --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lance Cross" To: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:21:57 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Natural Fighter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net All, I would like to address an issue or perhaps a second thought in the "discussion" on natural fighter. There is an obvious separation here of ideas between the "tough guy" natural fighters and martial artists. There are a few people that are not strongly polarized in the discussion. 1) Fantasy prone people or people who play them usually argue strongly for one side or the other (they have a faith not an idea of what is, a way of simplifying things despite reality being complex) 2) Realistic people usually look at incidentals. The Police and the Court system here (in Canada) usually look at the incident reports and judge the cases individually by looking at the details and not by faith or by putting into a categorical scenerio. Through personal experience one has to eliminate the BS and the ego and look at raw video or be an un-attached party to the situation. Part of fight analysis is to look at training and how it could have effect on the fight. (Learning from mistakes by self or others) the study of war (the martial arts) constantly changes by nature and fighters have to evolve with it. It has been my experience that most fantasy (ego) players usually are in the martial arts to feed it, or deminish the martial arts because they are not, or they are or have, but were never serious about it or accepting of it. As an ethical instructor I cannot promote my club using fantasy images or making unrealistic claims (I took a voluntary oath which I signed on ethics, things which I have strong ideas about) Students come in and learn combinations of fight, flee and freeze, there are many lessons to learn and they are progressively structured so that the students eventually develop. I have never had a student that didn't get better than they were when they came in. New students (less than 6 months in) often develop false confidence and are "confused" in fighting as they try all their new material out, but this usually dies off before the first year is up. Nearly everyone has the ability to fight. Humans have programmed into them Fight, Flight or Freeze as most animals do. All have the potential to save you under similar or different circumstances (depending on who (what) is hunting you) Small children have a tendancy to unbalance and fall down (still mobile though) hoping that a predator will grab one of the other on their feet. (children have a tendency to flock together, they immediately are attracted to other children and run around together) Most elementary school teachers will tell you about all the diversionary tactics children are expert in. All part of the survival program most of us have. As an adult grows older and less in the flight or freeze categories (possibly as we mature, our programming changes) we are more likely to fight (possibly change over from being prey to predator) and fight to win (escalating) predator behaviour. In essense children have the strongest survival (prey) functions and these should be studied as martial artists who are into self defense. For martial artists who are into self offense they would study adult methods of fighting and escalating the violence to ensure victory. The law favours the prey. "It is not who is right, but who is left that counts" Ed Parker -- don't worry about the law if it means your death. My idea is self survivial. As natural fighters go, perhaps they are the ultimate predator-instincted people able to project terror into the hears minds and souls of their prey, and attack with the ferocitiy and lethalness of the grim reaper, however somehow there are more survivors than victims. I would like to think that somehow training every day that you do increases your chances and levels the playig field against a predator that just rely on being predators. "I forge my body through the will of my mind" can't be all bad. -Lance Cross -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/05 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:46:44 -0800 From: "A. Van Meter" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] natural fighter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > i've had students like this and i usually have to destroy them and > hope they leave before they realize that they are "natural fighters" and > start enjoying themselves at the cost of others who are not! I don't understand - are you saying that rather than give them the same consideration and training you would give anyone else, you do your best to make them leave? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:55:26 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Todd Ellner" > Marc, about a year ago you got onto your high horse with me. Todd, what does any of this have to do with the fact that your orginal statement...and I quote... >The ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the >naturals' lunch." is the functional equiavlent of "the guy who really gets my respect is Santa Claus"? Which that -- not past history, silat politics, lineage or revealing my secret plans to take over the world -- is what I called you on. Your statement encourages people to believe a fantasy and ignore the legitimate danger 'naturals' pose -- even to someone WITH training. That is a dangerous and false misconception. M --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:04:27 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: Jonathan Kessler > When you reply to the statement " >>The ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the >>naturals' lunch." > > are you understanding it as saying "Anyone who trains in martial arts will > wind up being able to kick a natural fighters ass"? > Because that seems to be the statement to which you're responding. > If you read it as "Sometimes a person who trains develops enough skill in > fighting that they develop into a successful fighter", would your reply be > the same? Good points and good questions. But let me toss the statement itself around a bit, then hand it back to you in the same grammatical context and see how realistic you find the underlying logic. Let's a) put this in basketball terms and b) I will fill out the details in ( ). "The ones who get my respect are the pluggers (after a lot of practice) who end up eating Michael Jordan's lunch (in a one-on-one game)." That's what I objected to. Had Mr. Ellner phrased it in the terms of your second question, (Sometimes a person who trains develops enough skill in fighting that they develop into a successful fighter) I would not only have remained silent, but I would have agreed wholeheartedly. Because practice and dilligence do pay off, so does experience. Hell, had he even said, "A long time practictioner can often defeat a younger, untrained and inexperienced natural athlete," I wouldn't have objected. Because these are true and demonstrable contentions. However, that is not what Mr. Ellner said in his post. You ask about other possible interpretations of his post. The way English works is that each paragraph contains a complete thought. Hence, the sentences directly relate to each other. Now MAYBE his post is an example of seperate thoughts running together. That would imply bad grammer and a poor understanding of written English. But looking at it in the context of the words I seriously doubt it. And I quote... >"....eats the naturals' lunch. When the guy with loads of talent gets to >the end of where native ability will take him >(or hits 30, same thing in >many ways...) he'll often quit. The guy who's had to work for it the whole >time will keep >on going until he gets over the next hill. Now let me get real nitpicky here. Although I used Michael Jordan as a comparative example, that is techincally incorrect. I say this based NOT by my words, but Todd's. Look at his original post for verification. Notice the position of the apostrophe in the word naturals. It came AFTER the S. This is a compound modifier indicating not only one natural, but many. Is that "plugger" going to defeat the entire Chicago Bulls singlehandedly? Or is a team of "pluggers" going to take the NBA championships? Or, since he didn't pluralize "lunches" but he did so with "pluggers" was he, as his sentence should be read, indicating that a group of pluggers should get together to rat pack a natural fighter instead of facing him alone? Which would be a legitimate street strategy. But unfortunately for this idea, the next two sentences talks about individuals. Furthermore, where I'm from, "eating someone's lunch" has some very specific connotations...and they are NOT in a training context. Therefore, by following "lunch eating" with comments about training it is understood that you are training to kick his ass. By being in the same paragraph without a distinct subject change this is not implied, but rather a direct grammatical connection. What is debatable about "implied" or "infered" is here: >eats the naturals' lunch. When the guy with loads of talent gets to the end >of where native ability will take him >(or hits 30, same thing in many ways...) he'll often quit. The guy who's >had to work for it the whole time will keep >on going until he gets over >the next hill. Is Mr Ellner suggesting -- as his word choice could indicate -- that you should wait until a natural fighter is in phsyical decline before you launch your attack? The one you have been training so long for? That is the context that it can be read in light of his use of "eating lunch" terminology. And while it would be appropriate as a fighting strategy, it is the moral equivalent of coming back from training and beating everyone up who bullied you in high school. Was he, if we read the first two sentences in the strictest sense saying that a group of pluggers should wait until the school bully gets old and then "eat his lunch?" I doubt it. Or was he speaking of the many training plateaus and difficulties that a martial artist will encounter in a lifelong pursuit of personal development? Plateaus and difficulties that occur regardless if you are fighting or merely training. In which case I would agree. But that is a training issue. If you remember, I mentioned there was apparent confusion between training and application in his post. Unfortunately for this theory, there is that "eating lunch" comment without a subject transisition. What has never been questioned is Mr. Ellner's intelligence or education. As such I have to ask how many of these "little mistakes" do people grant before the other 'possibility' comes into play? That being that he both said what he meant and actually believes it? In which case, I stand by my comments. JK again > I think that you have an extremely valid point to make, but sometimes you > state it so strongly that the actual >point gets lost in the vehemence of > the message. Okay. But let me ask you something. When somebody states the equivalent of "the ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the Michael Jordan's lunch" why does nobody else step up and say anything? Do you believe it yourselves? Is everyone secretly hoping to be that happy plugger? OR perhaps it is a silent endorsement of a marketing strategy oriented on selling this dream to John Q Plugger. OR is it an example of someone making an extreme statement and folks interpreting it as what they think it means (e.g., "The ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the naturals' lunch" gets translated into "Sometimes a person who trains develops enough skill in fighting that they develop into a successful fighter"). Or is this the cyber equivalent of the uncomfortable silence that follows when someone in the middle of a party makes a major faux paus? Or do people just automatically dismiss what he has to say and therefore can't be bothered to respond to such an absurd comment? OR maybe, just maybe, because that nobody noticed it because they'd heard it so often that they begin to accept the concept as legitimate? I really want to know; Why didn't anybody else step up and question the idea of beating a natural -- who usually has training and experience -- at his own game? M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest