Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 18:16:22 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #391 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.8 required=5.0 tests=ALL_NATURAL,NO_REAL_NAME, OFFERS_ETC autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. FMAdigest (Punong Guro Steven Dowd) 2. Re: why some statements go unchallenged (Jonathan Kessler) 3. Natural Fighter-Nice to know U !! (Jorge Penafiel) 4. Re: Natural Fighters (tellner@cecs.pdx.edu) 5. Re: Natural Fighters (tellner@cecs.pdx.edu) 6. Dysparxia ? (Ray Terry) 7. Natural Fighter (Lance Cross) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:48:10 -0800 (PST) From: Punong Guro Steven Dowd To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMAdigest Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The fmadigest is now taking a survey on publishing certain issues in booklet form, for those interested in purchasing them. Main page of the FMAdigest near the bottom for the survey and explaination. FMAdigest - www.fmadigest.com Arnis Balite www.arnisbalite.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:37:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: why some statements go unchallenged Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: I really want to know; Why didn't anybody else step up and question the idea of beating a natural -- who usually has training and experience -- at his own game? M Ummm... maybe because we were waiting for you to reply? "Wow, Marc's gonna hammer this one" It's an interesting group dynamic. One person feels the burden to take an action, the rest of the group, recognizing that, step back to allow that action to occur. If that one person leaves the group or changes his behavior, the whole dynamic of the group changes. Interesting, I had never thought of it happening in an online environment. JK --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:05:37 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Natural Fighter-Nice to know U !! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All !! Word is digest readers have had enough readings/hoopla regarding this so called "Natural" Fighter, and so rather are deleting further threads about it - myself included... At this point, I think this individual is starting to get into our nerves. He's too much of a person overall based on our descriptives of him. Anyhow, my catch from this thread was, what is it for us MA instructors knowing then that such a person do exists. We have a good base info on his persona, we've psyco-analyzed him, compared him with other mutants out there, and some even have meet/encountered them on the streets. Further, we know what's best for if one such person shows-up and be in our class or simply knew of someone personally. So,,time to find other born and gifted MA people out there specifically!!! Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:58:37 -0800 From: tellner@cecs.pdx.edu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, I don't know how I can be any clearer than what I just said. But if you really don't understand, and aren't just being intentionally obtuse I'll try to explain it again. I am not particularly interested in guys whose main advantage is loads of natural talent and superior genetics. I am much more interested in people who do more with less. Here are some reasons why: There are lots of people with natural talent in any field. Fighting is no different. If you've got buttloads of natural talent, then wonderful. The gods have blessed you with native ability. The problem is that natural talent will only take you so far. There are lots of people with talent who get to the end of what is easy and get stuck. The moment things get difficult they just don't have the heart. People with less talent but more drive and determination usually end up better off in the long run. They aren't discouraged by failure. They persevere. Maybe they lose more often in the beginning. But they learn from their mistakes and get better. Even the Gods of Street Combat, the Superpredator Warriors aren't all that way because of raw talent. The ones I've met - and yes, I have dealt with a few - mostly got that way by being knocked around. They got up, went back at it and learned. Most of these guys found a few things that worked for them and mostly stick with them. I'm not a superior genetic mutant. I'm a pretty normal guy. Most of the people I know are pretty normal guys. So I'm really not interested in the ones who get by on natural talent. It's good to know they're out there. They are some of the guys I might have to fight some day. But beyond that they aren't the most important thing in the world. I don't have what they have, so I spend the time on what will make me better. I look at people who aren't so gifted. I look at the ones who are still around when they shouldn't be. Their experience is something I can learn from because what they did I have a chance of doing. And something that increases my chances of survival commands my attention. Mike Tyson is out there. Happy day. I don't have what he has, so all I'm interested in about him is how to survive if we cross paths. But Brandt Bollers is also out there. Asthmatic, half-crippled, near-sighted, migraine-prone Brandt Bollers. He should be dead several times over, but he survived through determination, hard work and making the most of what he has. And since he was never a drunken jerk with some natural speed who went looking for fights - unlike you by your own repeated admission - what he does and how he gets by are of infinitely more interest to me. They're relevant. They have a good chance of saving my life. They've certainly saved me a couple beatings I would have had otherwise. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand? Would you like it in shorter words next time? I'll try a couple simpler ones. Maybe they will help clear up any misconceptions. 1) One of the men I respect most on anything concerning survival is Phil Messina. I've mentioned him before. He really is about 20% larger than life and has the proof to back it up. He said the best advice he ever got about fighting was from his Italian mother. She said (I paraphrase) "It's not the guy whose willing to hurt someone more. It's the one who's willing to get hurt more to win." 2) Thomas Edison: "Genius is 2% inspiration and 98% perspiration." 3) Brandt Bollers: "I might lose. You won't win." Do you understand? --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:45:34 -0800 From: tellner@cecs.pdx.edu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Natural Fighters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >odd, what does any of this have to do with the fact that your orginal >statement...and I quote... >>The ones who get my respect are the pluggers who end up eating the >>naturals' lunch." >is the functional equiavlent of "the guy who really gets my respect is Santa >Claus"? >Which that -- not past history, silat politics, lineage or revealing my >secret plans to take over the world -- is what I called you on. Your >statement encourages people to believe a fantasy and ignore the legitimate >danger 'naturals' pose -- even to someone WITH training. That is a dangerous >and false misconception. It's not the functional equivalent of Santa Claus. Ive said it very clearly. I've said it in another message in tomorrow's digest. I'll even say it once more here using really short words if that's what it takes to get through to you. The guys who command my respect are the ones who make do with what they have, not the ones who just have raw talent. In anything worth doing well, including fighting, it's heart, the willingness to soldier when things don't go your way and the ability to learn from experience that see you through in the long run. There are bad people out there. Someone with intent is always dangerous. If they are also big and strong and fast they are even more dangerous. But being intimidated by them won't help me survive if they decide to hurt me. Obsessing about how naturally scary and mean they are will just make me freeze up. All I can do is do the best I can with what I have, make sure that I'm as well prepared as I can be and trust in G-d. Since I'm lucky enough to know men and women who have survived people like that I listen to what they have to say. The ones who I spend my precious time with didn't get by on talent. They survived by determination and improving themselves. I can't waste time wishing I was ten feet tall and covered in fur. I have to get by being 5'9". So I'm a hell of a lot more interested in people like me who can survive people like them. That's not fantasy. That's hard, cold reality. You are the one who believes that unless Santa Claus gave you special gifts you just can't measure up. What you say somewhere else about waiting until the natural is old and then doing him is so off base that I can only suppose you are setting up a straw man because you can't answer the argument. I said before and I will say again, because it's true, in the end the one who works harder longer - not necessarily in the gym - is the one to bet on. Sooner or later everyone gets to the end of where natural ability will take them. Then the pluggers rise above the ones who coast on what nature gave them. Look at your old friend Steve Barnes. He's not a natural athlete. He's an utter body-Nazi who works his damned ass off. The guys with loads of talent who could kick his butt ten years ago can't anymore. He made himself strong. He learned how to get past his blockages. And he got better at fighting. Look at Richard Dobson. He's old and has any number of physical problems. But the old wolf still has fangs because he keeps them sharp and tussles with the cubs. I didn't bring up Silat lineages. You don't have one, so it isn't relevant. But the past is important. You've constantly pooh-poohed training and hard work in favor of the tricks you've picked up along the way and your very real skills in threat assessment and de-escalation. I take nothing away from you in the latter two. Your experience in them is undeniable. They are sorely lacking in most people. But when someone who has never spent the time and put in the hours claims that hard work won't help you, you have to ask yourself why. You also have to ask yourself if it makes any sense. It doesn't. So I called you on it. You've written a bunch of books based on the things you've gotten from people who have put in the sweat. But you heap scorn on them, what made them good and what they do in the next breath. You can't have it both ways. When you try to, expect me to pop up and call you on it again. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 18:14:23 -0800 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dysparxia ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Martial Arts: Stick fighting brings Jacob British double Nov 18 2005 By The Huddersfield Daily Examiner JACOB STEWART is double British champion once again. The Lowerhouses 13-year-old won both fighting and forms titles at the recent British Escrima Championships (stick fighting) for the third year in succession, although they have come at different age groups, the latest being Under 16. The Luton event was also the first qualifying round for the World Escrima Kali Arnis Federation Championships in Disneyland, America, next year, and Jacob will have done his selection chances a power of good with this performance. Jacob, who suffers from dyspraxia, a lack of co-ordination, has been a top competitor in the various age groups for a number of years, and this was further rewarded when he was one of a number of players who were presented with special awards for Outstanding Achievement. The trophies were awarded by Jacob's peers, so it was obviously a great boost for the young fighter as he bids for a place at the world event next year. One obstacle, however, could be finance, for it will be an expensive commitment to take him to Disneyland to battle for the title. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lance Cross" To: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:52:14 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Natural Fighter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. MacYoung, I personally took Mr.Ellner's statements as the "tortise and the hare" meaning that someone who trains alot and is persistant "plugging" away at their training is often much better than someone with natural talent that does not "plug" at it. Perhaps it was an ambiguous statement that we all take differently. My personal experience that when an skill comes to someone easy, they often do not develop their potential, relying on a the gift and not diligence in training. When it gets harder to become better (reaching perhaps a plateau) naturals often drop out, only doing things that are within their committment level (naturals usually have a fairly low level). (Pain is hard for those who have felt no pain before) Those that persist to develop their potential, even though are not gifted can become much better through persistant practice. I believe Mr. Ellner has drawn from a similar experience to mine for making that judgement that many naturals have low committment (not just naturals) and never even start to develop their potential choosing the all too common easy path (in some people's perspective their world view is that they only need to think themselves better than the people in their own personal community (ego)) I have met people who are talented that go on with committment but they are the extreme minority. An example of this from a structured Karate system (no arguements about its effectiveness etc.. to follow) statistically the most dropouts occur after the first belt is awarded, lets call that the Yellow Belt. (Thrill seekers looking for a taste of a new dish) the next dropout typically is at the point where you go from semiskilled to skilled, basically you start learning about fighting against fighters trained in other methods and you are starting to think about the second person in a mass attack. (start of getting street ready) this is the point of major drop outs. Conceptually much different. It is the point where you decide taking it from the Dojo against gentlemanly fights to someone that may know some basic "tricks" in street fighting. the level of committment here scares the next most amount away from continuing on (personally I found it the most exciting) We will call this the Green Belt. then a couple of belts later, you learn about Pain. Not only are the fellow fighters testing your limits, they fight hard and fast and using years of experience against you, knees, elbows, takedowns, more than one guy, one holds you while the other hits you etc.. It is also the most athletic belt, running, pumping iron etc. We will call this the 2nd Degree Brown Belt, few people have the commitment to make it past this point in training. The next two belts to the infamous "Black Belt" are relatively easy, only longer memory work and some smoothness and efficiency in your training, you start the pyramid organization of thinking about teaching in a new community at your own school and enter into politics etc... (Enter Weapons training somewhere around here) My experience is that most naturals rise quickly in fair testing and while training for Green Belt, drop out when (mostly for reasons involving the brain) the going gets tough. Naturals who work through problems are few, people who struggle from day one, often get through it all, because the going was always tough and the ability to withstand the rigors of training was being developed. I believe this is also a statistic of the Navy Seals of Hell Week. The ones who struggle the first day have a better chance of making it through and have no performance ethic issues, where the easily and overly fit are good the first day, but usually drop out due to the underdeveloped skill of tolerance of what they put you through. Same in fighting, a committment in learning, getting experience to see what it feels like, fighting through injury and knowing it (instead of knowing of it) is something that some people have in greater levels than others. What he may mean by plugger is one that has committment to training despite their gift level usually are much better developed fighter, and in ring fighting at least in my experience even natural fighters need to work hard with a training team before they get very far. How many Olympians in the modern day are all natural talent without professional development? (Yes, they may exist but its not reasonable to expect) -Lance Cross -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/05 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest