Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:30:53 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #407 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: pocket sticks (RavenSire@aol.com) 2. Re: Two-Handed Style (bgdebuque) 3. Re: Two-Handed Style (Ray) 4. Re: pocket sticks (Ray) 5. Re: Two-Handed Style (RJ Garcia) 6. Re: Ancient form of Filipino martial arts (james jr. sy) 7. http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/sword.htm (Ray) 8. Re: Two-Handed Style (Ray) 9. Enrique, Magellan's slave (Leo Salinel) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: RavenSire@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:21:30 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] pocket sticks To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hello stickgrappler! i realized you posted this on 11-09-05, but i've been working crazy hours at an airport job and it hasn't allowed me much time to read my emails. i've been married to martial arts since 1968, mostly japanese, i'm 49 yrs old, and have rank in many arts. i studied fma from 1971 - 1973, but have seen eskrima since the early1960's. i am very knowledgeable in little known japanese weaponry... the pocket stick (known to many in fma as "tabak maliit") is also known as an old japanese gentleman's art known as "yawara" or "kashi-no-bo". my master, tadashi sukio, carried one everywhere we went in new york city, easily concealed in his jacket pocket. i trained in this art for about five years. locks, blocks, and attack areas make up the science of this little known art. it is not seen in our modern-day practice because it really isn't fancy. it is to the point, attack the attacking limb, then the attacker. alot like fma's defang the snake theory. i may actually have a copy of an old booklet i got from a website years ago just because it reminded me of my sensei. if you need more info, let me know. ra! maestro antonio maldonado:"karunungan ay kapangyarihan!" (knowledge is power) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:34:54 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My apologies Ray. I didn't realize that you have publicly-acknowledged that the two-handed style is part of your school. I revisited your website and also noted that "larga mano" was primarily based on the "kampilan" heavy sword. I think this is the sword which gained notoriety of having the capability to slice through a Krag, Enfield or Springfield rifle. Message: 10 > From: Ray > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:12:54 -0800 (PST) > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > I think most Arnis/Eskrima schools have a two-handed style embedded in > their > > curriculum. The only one I have personally seen publicly acknowledge it > so > > far is Giron Arnis Escrima with their "Tero Pisada" style. > > Inayan Larga Mano is well known as a two-handed system. As in two-hands > needed to control a heavier longer sword. We teach it using a heavy > thicker > rattan cane from 36" to 42" long. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > > > -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:58:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > My apologies Ray. I didn't realize that you have publicly-acknowledged that > the two-handed style is part of your school. I revisited your website and > also noted that "larga mano" was primarily based on the "kampilan" heavy > sword. I think this is the sword which gained notoriety of having the > capability to slice through a Krag, Enfield or Springfield rifle. No apologies needed... but thank you. I suspect(?) that it should really be Inayan Largo Mano instead of Larga, but that is the name that Suro used, so I stick (pun intended) with it... Yes, Suro based it on the kampilan, esp making good use of the horn (or open mouth, if you prefer) at the end of the handle. The Krag... really love that action, but just not much for stopping power. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] pocket sticks To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:00:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > since the early1960's. i am very knowledgeable in little known japanese > weaponry... > the pocket stick (known to many in fma as "tabak maliit") is also known as > an old japanese gentleman's art known as "yawara" or "kashi-no-bo". Also well known in the Korean art of Hapkido as the dan bong. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:18:17 +0000 (GMT) From: RJ Garcia Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my opinion, I can agree that two-handed styles of wielding weapons are embedded in arnis/eskrima in so far as they are afterthoughts and not really focused on. All of the arnis/eskrima styles I have come across use only one hand in wielding a weapon. In my experience of arnis, one may need to reinforce a thrust coming from serrada position with the live hand, but here the second hand pushes on the wrist and does not hold the weapon. Tapado is the only FMA system I have come across that focuses on wielding the weapon with both hands, and predominantly uses up and down movements. There are quite a few relatively heavy weapons in the Philippines, like the kampilan and the panabas. The kampilan in my knowledge is still predominantly a single-handed weapon, and if one looks at the design of the handle, it is fit only for one hand and the second hand has to hold on to the elongated butt end. The panabas in Luzon (Nueva Ecija area) is an agricultural tool and is normally around 30 inches long, and is used by farmers single handedly even if half of the length of the weapon is composed of the handle. Personally though, I can say that I can possibly apply the basics I have learned in single stick and largo mano to a two handed weapon, though I have to get used to the relative slowness of the weapon (such as a tapado or bangkaw held at one end). For defenses against two-handed weapons, largo mano concepts of timing and range coupled with trapping can work. The barong is probably the moro weapon you are talking about, bgdebuque, and is also a single-handed weapon. It has a wide blade and looks like a leaf. Google it and you will surely find good examples and descriptions. It is a weapon used by the Tausug people of Muslim Mindanao. On the side, these moro weapons such as the kris, kampilan, panabas, and barong, are symbols of the people that they represent. These moro weapons are not are used here in the Philippines by practitioners of arnis/eskrima. The moros have their own martial heritage, that of silat and kuntaw. People from Luzon have the dinahong-palay, balisong, bolo, panabas, etc., while in Visayas they have their own blades, such as the pinuti, ginunting, lampirong, and others. Of course, their are cross cultural influences and parallelisms, like the barong having a semblance to the lampirong, a Cebuano weapon. For Filipino FMA practitioners, seeing an arnisador brandishing a kampilan is somewhat like seeing an practitioner of Spanish fencing holding an English Sabre. rj --- bgdebuque wrote: > I think most Arnis/Eskrima schools have a two-handed > style embedded in their > curriculum. The only one I have personally seen > publicly acknowledge it so > far is Giron Arnis Escrima with their "Tero Pisada" > style. > > I have heard that Tapado Arnis of Negros Occidental > primarily teaches a > two-handed single long stick style. I think their > contact details can be > found in the Negros FMA website somebody posted > about a week ago. > > The Muslim tribes of Southern Philippines, of > course, once gained notoriety > for their double-handed heavy sword (I think it is > called the "balong" but I > am not that sure). It has been documented that this > sword can slice through > the stock and barrel of the a Krag, Enfield or > Springfield rifle. > > > > -- __--__-- > > > > Message: 1 > > From: "Lance Cross" > > To: > > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:25:48 -0500 > > Subject: [Eskrima] White Rabbit > > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > Do many FMA practice defense against a two handed > weapon? or defense with a > two handed weapon other than the staff (bankaw?) > > -Lance > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:34:27 -0800 (PST) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Ancient form of Filipino martial arts To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net quote: It is practised in several Southeast Asian countries - under a variety of names such as Krabi Krabong, or Trumbu or Cuong Nhu. Anis, krabi krabong, and cuong nhu are different arts and have no relationship to each other. Krabi krabong is Thai weapons work and was the "pair" of ancient muay Thai. Ccuong nhu is an eclectic Vietnamese style of karate based on Shotokan karate with elements from other atys such as tai chi chuan. Arnis is a generic term for the various composite styles, systems, and traditions of FMA. Quote: There are already arnis tournaments in Europe and North America, but it has taken a long time to set up a regional competition. Most tournament rules used in competitions outisde the Philippines are based on WEKAF rules and variations/derivatives thereof. There has been some Arnis Philippine sanctioned competitions but the WEKAF events dominate the circuit. Quite: Richardson Gealogo added: "We don't appreciate it so much because it's from here. Filipinos are more or less inclined to study other or foreign martial arts instead of their own. That's our nature and we're sorry about that." This attitude could have stemmed from the more than 300 years domination of the country by the Spaniards. Another factor is that arnis has still to be successfully "repackaged" for general consumption. The Philippines' neighbors had already made strides in standardization, Thailand (muay Thai), Indonesia (pencak silat), China (wushu), etc. Just my 2 cents. Ray Terry wrote: SEA Games: Filipinos target gold in traditional martial art debut By Channel NewsAsia's Philippines Bureau Chief Twink Macaraig MANILA : An ancient form of Filipino martial arts makes it debut as a medal sport at this year's Southeast Asian Games in the Philippines. Known as Arnis, it has a colourful history and is today used by law enforcement officers all over the world. Don't be surprised if this sport strikes you as being vaguely familiar. It is practised in several Southeast Asian countries - under a variety of names such as Krabi Krabong, or Trumbu or Cuong Nhu. But the Philippines lays claim to popularising its term for this stick-fighting martial art. And now even international dictionaries refer to it as "Arnis". Arnis dates back to the 16th century, when Spanish colonisers banned Filipinos from using weapons with blades. The Filipinos responded by learning to fight with something far more innocuous - a wooden rod. They trained in secret - disguising their drills as dances and stage plays - today arnis still bears the marks of its unusual history. No real weapons are used in competition - only props - but the martial art is used by law enforcers around the world. Richardson Gealogo, Vice President of Arnis Philippines, said: "Very effective because a lot of police not only here in the Philippines but, for example, the LA police learn arnis to handle crowd control…" With several policemen in their team, the Philippines is a strong contender for the gold in arnis at the SEA Games. But Rene Tuntunakaw is a tad wary. "I have a feeling the other countries have a good training. Not like us, because they have full support of their country. But as for me I'll fight for the gold," he said. There are already arnis tournaments in Europe and North America, but it has taken a long time to set up a regional competition. Richardson Gealogo added: "We don't appreciate it so much because it's from here. Filipinos are more or less inclined to study other or foreign martial arts instead of their own. That's our nature and we're sorry about that." Will Filipinos cheer their team to gold in this home-grown sport? We will find out at the SEA Games. - CNA/de _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:45:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/sword.htm Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A portion of my little collection of fun FMA and Indonesian weapons. http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/sword.htm Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:42:14 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > There are quite a few relatively heavy weapons in the > Philippines, like the kampilan and the panabas. The > kampilan in my knowledge is still predominantly a > single-handed weapon, and if one looks at the design > of the handle, it is fit only for one hand and the > second hand has to hold on to the elongated butt end. It would seem that the kampilan is used with two hands. True, the straight part of the grip can typically only accomodate one larger hand, but the supporting hand easily grips the rear (Naga's open mouth) of the grip. That is utilized to quickly reverse the blade as well as help support the longer blade. I submit that a person of smaller stature would have a difficult time effectively using a 100 cm long weapon single handed. > ... These moro weapons are not > are used here in the Philippines by practitioners of > arnis/eskrima. The moros have their own martial > heritage, that of silat and kuntaw. People from Luzon > have the dinahong-palay, balisong, bolo, panabas, > etc., while in Visayas they have their own blades, > such as the pinuti, ginunting, lampirong, and others. > Of course, their are cross cultural influences and > parallelisms, like the barong having a semblance to > the lampirong, a Cebuano weapon. FWIW, several accounts have Magellan being killed by a kampilan. A Cebuano making use of a typically Moro weapon. Not too strange at all considering their proximity. IMHO Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Enrique, Magellan's slave Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry is right. Enrique lamented his master's death but was prevailed upon by his fellow Visayans to stay in Sugbu (Cebu). Actually, the story has a twist. After Magellan's death, Rajah Humabon treacherously either poisoned or massacred Magellan's men (leaving only a small group including El Cano, whose full name is Juan Sebastian de El Cano or simply Del Cano to return to Spain). The story goes that Enrique was lamenting Magellan's death when he was suddenly mistreated by one of the Mactan beach survivor Spaniards. Thus, when Humabon hatched his plans, Enrique kept silent or probably participated in the plans. There is much speculation as to whether Enrique was a Visayan from Cebu or was from the same Malayan ethnic group from which the Visayans came (from the Moluccas? Bugis?). Remember, in the 1500s, the Filipinos were not yet that distinguished from the rest of the Indonesian-Malay archipelago. For example, the Tausugs and the people of Brunei are directly anthropologically related (the Sultan of Brunei and the Sultan of Sulu are actually related, sort of like the German monarchs were to the Romanovs of Russia). Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest