Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 03:01:16 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #413 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Sticks and Cuong Nhu (Peter Gow) 2. Johnny LaCoste (Ray) 3. Re: Two-handed style (Jonathan Kessler) 4. Re: Two-handed style (John Johnson) 5. Swords cutting through other steel (Steve Klement) 6. Re: Johnny LaCoste (Steve Kohn) 7. Two Weapons (Ollie Batts) 8. Re: RE: [Eskrima] (Martin Rowe) 9. Re: Swords cutting through other steel (adam babb) 10. Re: Sundry comments (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:26:55 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Sticks and Cuong Nhu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James, Its a pleasure. Cuong Nhu from what I have read is a mainly a mixture of arts from other cultures. I am not sure whether the sticks come from another culture or not. The art itself is a mixture of Viet vo do, judo, shotokan karate, wing chun, jujitsu, and some weapons such as bo, sticks etc. Cuong Nhu was started in 1965 in Vietnam and was then spread to America in 1971.   You can find info at                      www.cuongnhu.com Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:42:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Johnny LaCoste Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net FWIW, the footage mentined of Johnny LaCoste in the Stockton park has been available in the archives of this list for several years. There is also some shorts of Angel and Pedoy. You have to ftp/download and then view on your PC. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:53:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-handed style To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The medieval broadsword was effective against armor, but primarily by thrusting, not slicing or hacking. Period writings describe thrusting through armor, preferrably through the joints in the plate (the underarm joint was a favored target). The evolution of plate armor was accompanied by an evolution in sword design toward a more tapered blade that was balanced for thrusting rather than (or more accurately, in addition to) slicing. It is easier to pierce plate than to hack through it. The same thing applies to your balisong example - the test is to pierce a coin, not to slice it in half... Blades designed to pierce armor typically have a reinforced profile, either a thick rib on the back edge or a diamond shaped profile. An interesting example is the Indian Katar dagger. Getting back to the "two weapons" topic of this thread, sword and dagger (and rapier and dagger) were very common in late medieval and renaissance Europe, and schools/methods for their use are well documented. True "two sword" style was uncommon, due in part to the high cost of swords, but not unheard of. There are documented examples of "a case of swords", that is, two swords designed to fit in a single scabbard, much like the paired Chinese broadswords. Clearly, this took some innovation in hilt/handguard design as well as blade profile. I think that Dark Armory makes a modern reproduction of a renaissance case of swords. JK -- __--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:23:29 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-handed style Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the hands of the right person, medieval broadswords were supposed to be effective against medieval armor - whether plate or chain. A katana (like a rapier) is a light sword. The heft of a kampilan, on the other hand, would be similar to that of a broadsword. Its energy upon impact, however, might be even higher than that of a broadsword because it is top-heavy (wider at the tip). Ray will be in a better position to corroborate this because he has a kampilan in the picture of the partial collection of Philippine blades he owns. Of course, it might also be possible that the barrel of the Krag, Enfield or Springfield in question simply broke into two after the kampilan blade sliced through the wooden stock. After all, these rifles are all bolt-action types devoid of the gas mechanism (which means more metal) present in repeating rifles. BTW when you buy a balisong in the streets of the Philippines, the traditional standard test is for the vendor to use the blade you want to buy to pierce a 1-peso coin, if the blade was not able to do that, one is not supposed to buy it. Testing first one's intended weapon against metal is part of the FMA tradition... Message: 6 > From: "John Johnson" > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:19:48 -0500 > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > >It has been documented that this sword can slice through > >the stock and barrel of the a Krag, Enfield or Springfield rifle. > > The same claim has been said of the katana...Steel swords can not slice, > cut, hack of chop through steel, it's not possible, why do you think > medieval European armor was so effective, that is why axes, war hammers > and > picks became so popular and the weapon of choice among knights and men at > arms, after their lances of course but I digress from the main subject so > i'll turn this back to FMA and the experts here whom I learn so much from > on > a daily bases. > > > > Peace Out > John --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "John Johnson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-handed style Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you for the follow up, I couldn't have said it better myself. I emailed bgdebuque off the forum with a similiar reply, but I think you state it more clearly than I have. Peace Out John >From: Jonathan Kessler >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-handed style >Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:53:35 -0800 (PST) > >The medieval broadsword was effective against armor, but primarily by >thrusting, not slicing or hacking. Period writings describe thrusting >through armor, preferrably through the joints in the plate (the underarm >joint was a favored target). The evolution of plate armor was accompanied >by an evolution in sword design toward a more tapered blade that was >balanced for thrusting rather than (or more accurately, in addition to) >slicing. > It is easier to pierce plate than to hack through it. The same thing >applies to your balisong example - the test is to pierce a coin, not to >slice it in half... > > JK --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Steve Klement Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:34:56 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Swords cutting through other steel Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Johnson - I cannot comment for certain about the rest of it all but I can say this... I myself have put a Barong through the hood of a car (not a new "plastic" kind of car either - it was an old 70's Dodge). Also you mention the link to website on Moro swords: http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/ Mr. Malibago has done some great research and knows these blades for sure. He is also a student of Inayan Eskrima through one of the ISI's affiliate instructors and because of this I was very fortunate to have him recondition one of my Kris's. Turned out beautiful and he was able to give me some info on the blade that made it that much more special to me. -- Steve Klement Inayan Masirib Guro www.inayaneskrima.com klement@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International On Nov 29, 2005, at 5:26 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > From: "John Johnson" > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:19:48 -0500 > > > It has been documented that this sword can slice through the stock > and barrel of the a Krag, Enfield or Springfield rifle. > > The same claim has been said of the katana...Steel swords can not > slice, > cut, hack of chop through steel, it's not possible, why do you think > medieval European armor was so effective, that is why axes, war > hammers and > picks became so popular and the weapon of choice among knights and > men at > arms, after their lances of course but I digress from the main > subject so > i'll turn this back to FMA and the experts here whom I learn so > much from on > a daily bases. > > > > Peace Out > John --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:41:32 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Johnny LaCoste To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cool. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Steve Ray wrote: FWIW, the footage mentined of Johnny LaCoste in the Stockton park has been available in the archives of this list for several years. There is also some shorts of Angel and Pedoy. You have to ftp/download and then view on your PC. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:43:01 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Two Weapons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Spanish fencing became very advanced in the area of rapier and dagger. The sword was worn longer there as part of fashionable dress than in other parts of Europe. Thus more time was spent developing this fighting style. Many in and out of the RP think that this fact contributed heavily to the FMAs." "Ray Terry" As Ray rightly says, fashion played a huge part in the types of swords worn and used at different times in Western Europe. At one period of time swords were often rather long and unwieldy, and were, therefore always accompanied by some kind of back-up weapon, or object of defence. This might have been a small shield (known as a buckler), or a cloak, dagger or, even, a lantern. When the long slender rapier came into fashion, and it became de rigueur in high society, the use of, and argument about, the deadliness of the point over the edge had clearly been won in favour of the point. Alfieri produced many illustrations to show the rapier in use with either a cloak or a dagger. Marozzo also provides instruction in the use of the rapier, as well as with the cloak and dagger together. Another version of fighting with two weapons was described by Marozzo, Di Grassi and others. This was the use of two rapiers together, known as 'A Case of Rapiers'. They were known as that due to their method of carry, being kept together in the same scabbard until needed. Whether or not the rapier as we know it influenced the way weapons were used in the Philippines I'm not so sure of, as they were far longer than the swords used in the Filipino Martial Arts, and their use consisted mainly of point work. Having said that, I imagine that the types of weapons used by the Spanish who 'visited' the Philippines would have been somewhat shorter and more cutlass-like than the rapiers being worn in high society. Ollie Batts --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:29:10 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Rowe Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: [Eskrima] To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray, wrapping it in cotton then lacquering the cotton, you get a better grip and it shock abosorbs/stregnthens that wood. One last thing customer service is first rate with Kris, when I broke the handle I called them and asked to purchase a new one or to get a new one put on. Cecile took the time to tell me how to fix the handle and made sure that I had everything I needed to get it done. The blade still goes with me anytime I go into the mountains it is the back up to my .357 friend. Hope that helps TJ Ray wrote: > Question has anybody purchased or have any experience with the Cold Steel, > CAS Iberia or Kris Cutlery Filipino swords. Just curious of quality and > authenticity of the weapons, before I make a purchase, or am I better off > finding a sword maker in the Phillipines, which I would prefer, but it's of > course not easily accessable to me at this time. I have limited experience with CAS Iberia. A friend bought a katana from them. It turned out to be of low quality inspite of the high price. Cecil Quirino of Kris Cutlery is a friend, so I am rather biased as to his products. I have purchased a number of his older collectible pieces that came from the Sulu area, but few of his production blades. However both were of excellent quality. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:14:28 -0800 (PST) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Swords cutting through other steel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i would also have to refer you to cold steel knives. on the acount of medievil armor john only rich men wore plate. Most just wore what they could aford ie.boiled leather or brigidine. --- Steve Klement wrote: > Mr. Johnson - > > I cannot comment for certain about the rest of it > all but I can say > this... I myself have put a Barong through the hood > of a car (not a > new "plastic" kind of car either - it was an old > 70's Dodge). > > Also you mention the link to website on Moro swords: > http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/ > > Mr. Malibago has done some great research and knows > these blades for > sure. He is also a student of Inayan Eskrima through > one of the ISI's > affiliate instructors and because of this I was very > fortunate to > have him recondition one of my Kris's. Turned out > beautiful and he > was able to give me some info on the blade that made > it that much > more special to me. > > -- > Steve Klement > Inayan Masirib Guro > www.inayaneskrima.com > klement@inayaneskrima.com > Inayan Systems International > > > > > On Nov 29, 2005, at 5:26 PM, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net > wrote: > > > From: "John Johnson" > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Two-Handed Style > > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:19:48 -0500 > > > > > > It has been documented that this sword can slice > through the stock > > and barrel of the a Krag, Enfield or Springfield > rifle. > > > > The same claim has been said of the katana...Steel > swords can not > > slice, > > cut, hack of chop through steel, it's not > possible, why do you think > > medieval European armor was so effective, that is > why axes, war > > hammers and > > picks became so popular and the weapon of choice > among knights and > > men at > > arms, after their lances of course but I digress > from the main > > subject so > > i'll turn this back to FMA and the experts here > whom I learn so > > much from on > > a daily bases. > > > > > > > > Peace Out > > John > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:06:27 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sundry comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net How painfully true. 'Have seen a few of these type of encounters back East and, generally, the results were either tragic or comic. Fortunately, most of these psychos never had high-level full contact FMA training and, therefore, do not know how a trained FMA practitioner would respond to the "killer sewing machine attack"... =[:->] > > Message: 4 > From: "Marc Denny" > To: > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 06:53:21 -0800 > Subject: [Eskrima] Sundry comments > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > There is also the matter of the pyscho > killer sewing machine attack developed to a frightening degree in some US > prisons. I am reminded of Don Pentecost's observation that "You just pump > him until he's dead, then you bind your wounds". The mindset assumed by > these rules is not present with such an individual. > > > Woof, > Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest