Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:01:37 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #418 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Flight Risk (Todd Ellner) 2. Bucket slashing (David Riggs) 3. RE: Swords cutting through other steel (John Johnson) 4. Re: Swords cutting steel (Gerry Chenevert) 5. Re: Re: Flight Risk (jay de leon) 6. Combat sports big boost to Pinoys' title conquest (Ray Terry) 7. pocket stick by any other name would hurt just as much :-) (Stick Grappler) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 00:03:18 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Flight Risk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bruce Schneier's views on anything related to security are worth listening to. You might not always agree, but you are guaranteed a thought-provoking and well informed opinion. His stuff is good reading if only because it gives you a coherent way to look at security problems and to be comfortable with risk, benefits, and tradeoffs. A couple years back he wrote columns that applied his incisive analysis to post-9/11 airline safety. Much of it also appeared in his excellent book Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World". A few of his observations were: “Fear is the barrier between ignorance and understanding. It's paralyzing. It makes us fatalistic. It makes us do dumb things. Moving beyond fear means freeing up our intelligence.” In other words, plan with your head, not with your emotions. Simple advice but hard to follow, especially in world of politics and public opinion. Any huge anti-terrorist detection system will get swamped by false positives long before it catches significant numbers of bad guys. Terrorists (or at least the leaders) aren't stupid. If something isn't going to work, they will switch tactics. Hijacking planes using small knives depended on compliant victims, pilots who were willing to give up the cockpit and other things which almost certainly don't apply any more. After 9/11 charging the cockpit or attempting a hijacking or shoe bombing has resulted in immediate and sometimes fatal subdual by the passengers and crew The next attacks will be something else. The public wanted to feel safe. The government wanted to appear to be doing something. The FAA serves the government's interests and, to a lesser extent, those of the airlines. The airlines didn't want to spend any money and wanted to avoid liability. When the competing interests were shaken together they came up with a compromise. The compromise was getting the public to pay for the new measures, not inconveniencing the airlines, a self-bestowed pat on the back for the TSA and DHS, and making a big deal about nail clippers. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:43:13 -0500 From: David Riggs To: Eskrima mail list Subject: [Eskrima] Bucket slashing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Peircing a braced object like a car hood as opposed to slashing through a bucket is as good a comparision of armored combat as any In the braced object, the fine point or wedge of the weapon traveling at high velocity focuses all of the energy into a very small point breaking the surface tension (probably not the right word) of the target. This would be akin to your opponent running onto a braced spear. To cut the bucket the weapon has to be fast enough to overwhelm the targets ability to move or adapt to the force coming against it. (check your physics texts for the formula - I've forgotten it) I always correlated this to speed breaking where a board is suspended by two fingers or struck in free fall. If the velocity of a punch or kick is not great enough then the board sails across the room on impact instead of breaking. Also remember that during the height of armored combat (11th century crusades) knights were often knocked unconcious with sword combat and then dispatched with a kidney dagger. Armor makers adapt to the threat a soldier faces most often. There are many historical accounts of knights returning to the castle bristling with arrows stuck in their armor, but are otherwise unharmed. On 12/3/05 10:46 PM, "eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net" wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:59:56 +0000 > From: Ollie Batts > To: > Subject: [Eskrima] Steel cutting steel > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Of course it's possible for steel to pierce, or even cut through, other > metal. That's why we use chisels to cut nuts from bolts when the corners are > rounded (especially in the absence of a torch). It's also obviously possible > to drive most hunting knives through the bonnet (hood) of a car. > > Don't forget, however, that in those circumstances the object being pierced, > or cut, is pretty much fixed. Now try piercing or cutting through something > when the object is allowed to move as it is hit. > > Try hanging a metal bucket from a tree, for example, and you'll certainly be > able to dent it, but not so likely to pierce it, or cut it at all. Remember > also that a bucket is not hardened and tempered, or highly polished either. > > No doubt a mathematician, or someone knowledgeable in physics, could tell us > at what speed a crossbow bolt would need to be travelling to be able to > penetrate the bucket before it was able to move or twist ever so slightly. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Johnson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Swords cutting through other steel Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well here are the answers i recieved from the medieval sword forum over the weekend. No real sources, and it was kind of inconclusive, but not a recommend thing to do to your sword. Marshal Member posted 12-04-2005 06:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- An old debate with a new twist, it seems. The claim usually involves a Japanese katana cutting a machinegun barrel. In all the times the arguments have raged I have never encountered anyone who was able to provide documentation of the incident. Probably this one will be similarly apocryphal. I have seen one test performed with a specially hilted modern katana blade against an antique Japanese helmet, under very artificial conditions. The test cut produced a split several inches in length in the helmet. It does not look as though a human head inside the helmet would have received more than a scalp wound and perhaps a concussion. Supposedly, one of the tests of a katana blade was that it be able to shear through the blades of inferior katanas. How did they define "inferior", though? I only know that I hope no one ever tries to cut through a gun barrel with a sword unless he's wearing full armour and good eye protection... IP: 159.87.49.218 Lue Member posted 12-05-2005 03:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, this is resolved quite easily. As stated the saber cut through gun barrel AND stock. So simply take a gunstock and try to cut through it. Even when clamped in a vise the result will be suprising for the one who believes it possible. If common sense fails let them test their hypothesis. Lue ------------------ www.arsgladii.at IP: 194.208.154.59 willaume Member posted 12-05-2005 04:44 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Well my shap angus trim cut through carpenters nail with ease. (Long think nail al little less thick than the pinky holding the cabbage or a vegetable of your choice) That is from horseback. I did not do it myself someone did it for me… It did not even nicked the edge. If my memory serves me well, there was some test early 1900 late 1800, where a saber cut through a breastplate. Cutting mild steel or car hood or door with hardened and tempered steel is not really a feat. That even how it use to be done industrially. Obviously the closer the hardness difference is the harder it is to cut, provided that the thickness does not vary. Obata sensei was the one performing the cut of the Japanese helmet. And that was a powerful cut, by a very proficient and powerful man. We can argue that the cut shape was not really useful in a combat situation but none the less he did it. Personally I tend to agree with marshal conclusions If we believe the Wallace collection test Japanese armour and helmets are about half as hard and half as thick as medieval armour. (And on the top of that medieval helmet usually have a brow re-enforce) As far as cutting through gun barrel a military gun barrel is not that thick for that matter (proportionally 5.6 riffles or M3, Mat 49 type of SMG have a better proportional thickness than late 1800-eraly 1900 rifle) and if used in abundance the barrel develop wear and tears (and the any army is in general quite good to prolong the useful life of a weapon.) Especially when the mission is bringing civilisation to indigenous population. (More particularly when you suspect the said indigenous will be armed with very sharp fruits to quote the captain Edmund blackader) so I can see a sword putting a dent in it. As Lue said cutting through the stock and the barrel may prove a tad more challenging though. Peace Out John --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gerry Chenevert" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:12:38 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Swords cutting steel Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One of the recurring stories in this thread has been that of a katana cutting a gun barrel.  In Japan the sword was considered one of their three national treasures, and as such the Samurai's blade represented his soul.  His sword had one purpose, to cut flesh.  It stands to reason that if a Samurai was close enough to cut a gun barrel, and most likely destroy his sword, a more likely solution would have been to deflect the barrel away and then chop off his opponents appendages.  As an aside, the Japanese "tested" newly forged swords on prisoners and or corpses.  This "service" was expensive, and only very high ranking samurai could afford it.  The idea of testing a blade by cutting an inferior blade would have been laughed at.  I think this story has been mixed up in translation. ;)  There were some exceptional bladesmiths in Japan, the Bizen school being a famous example.  A more likely scenario would have been a poorly forged blade being broken by a higher quality sword while in combat. I could see a Bizen blade doing this.    To tie back to FMA, I wonder how the Japanese fared against the Filipino warrior in bladed combat.  Can anyone suggest some reading material?  I knew an old manong who was in the islands during the Japanese occupation, but he didn't share too many stories of those times before he passed away.      --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:18:44 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Flight Risk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the succinct summary. What does Scheier say Homeland Security et. al.should be really doing--better human intel on the terrorists, more hi-tech screenings at airports, etc.? Jay de Leon Todd Ellner wrote: Bruce Schneier's views on anything related to security are worth listening to. You might not always agree, but you are guaranteed a thought-provoking and well informed opinion. His stuff is good reading if only because it gives you a coherent way to look at security problems and to be comfortable with risk, benefits, and tradeoffs. A couple years back he wrote columns that applied his incisive analysis to post-9/11 airline safety. Much of it also appeared in his excellent book Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World". A few of his observations were: “Fear is the barrier between ignorance and understanding. It's paralyzing. It makes us fatalistic. It makes us do dumb things. Moving beyond fear means freeing up our intelligence.” In other words, plan with your head, not with your emotions. Simple advice but hard to follow, especially in world of politics and public opinion. Any huge anti-terrorist detection system will get swamped by false positives long before it catches significant numbers of bad guys. Terrorists (or at least the leaders) aren't stupid. If something isn't going to work, they will switch tactics. Hijacking planes using small knives depended on compliant victims, pilots who were willing to give up the cockpit and other things which almost certainly don't apply any more. After 9/11 charging the cockpit or attempting a hijacking or shoe bombing has resulted in immediate and sometimes fatal subdual by the passengers and crew The next attacks will be something else. The public wanted to feel safe. The government wanted to appear to be doing something. The FAA serves the government's interests and, to a lesser extent, those of the airlines. The airlines didn't want to spend any money and wanted to avoid liability. When the competing interests were shaken together they came up with a compromise. The compromise was getting the public to pay for the new measures, not inconveniencing the airlines, a self-bestowed pat on the back for the TSA and DHS, and making a big deal about nail clippers. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:01:42 -0800 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Combat sports big boost to Pinoys' title conquest Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Combat sports big boost to Pinoys' title conquest By BONG PEDRALVEZ, The Manila Times Subeditor Combat sports such as wushu, boxing, tae kwon do, fencing, wrestling, muay thai and even the ethnic martial art of arnis delivered heavily in boosting the hosts to the overall championship of the 23rd Southeast Asian Games that lowered its curtains Monday. A relatively unfamiliar martial art that traces its roots to China, wushu produced the most golds for the Filipino bets with 11 or half of the total 22 up for grab, boxing followed with eight, tae kwon do six, while fencing and wrestling had five golds apiece. The RP judokas, starring the invincible John Baylon, had four while muay thai, arnis and karatedo had three each. Only the pencak silat athletes had a miserable outing in copping only 1 out of the 17 golds in the sport. Combining all of their ouputs, the 10 sports accounted for 49 golds or nearly half of the 113 that the country garnered in the 11-nation meet. Despite some setbacks on the track and the marathon events, athletics also had a fruitful outing with nine golds, matching its haul in the 2003 Vietnam Games, although it was below the 10 to 15 earlier forecast by controversial athletics chief Go Teng Kok. The billiards and snooker stars, bannered by US Open 9-ball champion Alex Pagulayan, also did a major contribution to the country's winning effort with eight golds, while the traditional boat rowers were simply phenomenal in sweeping of all their six races for as many golds. Aquatics also had nine -- five in diving, three of them courtesy of Sheila Mae Perez and four from the swimming pool where Miguel Molina splashed his way to three of them. Filipino bowlers also struck a gold mine, picking up four, capped by prestigious men's and women's masters crowns won Mark Win Tee and Liza Clutario, respectively. Archery, rowing and lawn tennis had three golds apiece while gymnastics, cycling, dancesport -- which went 2-for-2 -- and golf had two. Squash, chess, badminton, weightlifting, canoe/kayak, petanque, sepak takraw, squash, table tennis and triathlon were among the sports that did not win a single gold medal. The last time the Philippines hosted the Games in 1991, it won 91 gold, 62 silver and 84 bronze medals, but was a close second to Indonesia's 92-86-69. Two years ago in Vietnam, the Philippines finished fourth in the medal race with 49-53-76. While Filipino media, politicians and spectators heaped ever increasing praise on its athletes as the Games progressed, not all those watching were complimentary. Thailand, which will host the next Southeast Asian Games in 2007, criticized Philippine organizers for being too serious about winning medals and not concerned enough with the sportsmanship of the Games. When Filipinos - from President Arroyo on down - challenged those claims, Thai officials spent the remainder of the Games denying they ever made the comments. Elsewhere, East Timor won its first medal in a major international competition. Francisca Varela won a bronze medal in a women's anyo division of arnis, a Filipino martial art that emphasizes stick fighting. It gave the fledgling country its first medal of any color in any major Games, and it added two more bronze later in the same sport. East Timor, a former Indonesian province, competed at the Sydney Olympics in 2000 -- while still under United Nations administration -- and again at Athens in 2004 when the country marched under its own flag. It did not win a medal in either Olympics. with AP --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:27:58 -0800 From: Stick Grappler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] pocket stick by any other name would hurt just as much :-) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: RavenSire@aol.com > Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:45:48 EST > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] pocket sticks > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > thanks ray, > i didn't know that! > raymond (s.florida) yes, dan bong in KMA, yawara (eda koppo, koppo stick, yawara bo, kashi-no-bo, kubotan, etc) in JMA, tabik malit/olisi palad/dulo dulo in FMA, pocket stick, palm stick, short stick, even fist stick -- a pocket stick by any other name would hurt just as much :-) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest