Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:36:10 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #419 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Strength of the Base (bgdebuque) 2. Re: Re: Swords cutting steel (nephalim1@netscape.net) 3. Bruce Schneier (Young Forest) 4. Subject: RE: What happened to abused swords in the Middle ages? (David Riggs) 5. RE: Subject: RE: What happened to abused swords in the Middle ages? (John Johnson) 6. Katana Testing (Peter Gow) 7. Re: Katana Testing (Steve Kohn) 8. Re: 'Might have been due to the rifle... (bgdebuque) 9. CHARITY SEMINAR & SWORD CUTTING (Bill McGrath) 10. Re: FMA in WWII (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:01:30 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Strength of the Base Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The strength of the "Base" is basically influenced by 2 natural factors: 1. Friction 2. Mass The higher is the frictional force resisting the movement of a target away from the strike the better because more energy will be absorbed by the target (for a blunt weapon) or a deeper cut will be made (for a sharp weapon). The same goes if the mass of the target is higher. Of course, it is still possible to maximize the effect of a strike on a target which is both subject to minimal frictional resistance, as well as has a lower mass. This is by employing "hammer-and-anvil" tactics (e.g. pounding somebody with his back against the wall). > > Message: 6 > From: "Marc MacYoung" > To: > Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 11:42:03 -0800 > Subject: [Eskrima] Swords cutting through other steel > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > From: bgdebuque > > 1. The hardness of the cutting metal vis-a-vis the metal being cut > > 2. The sharpness of the cutting edge of the cutting metal > > 3. The size of the surface area of the initial point of contact (the > > smaller > > the better) > > 4. The angle at which the cutting metal strikes the surface of the metal > > to > > be cut (90 degrees is the best) > > 5. The mass of the cutting metal (the heavier, the better) > > 6. The velocity at which the cutting metal will strike the surface of > the > > metal to be cut (just remember that the formula for kinetic energy is > > E=1/2 > > MV2) > > "Base" also needs to be included in this list. This can come about in many > ways, including the weight of the item being cut, if it is moving or > stationary, it sitting on a surface or if you are cutting down into the > surface. For example an empty can hanging on a string is going to react > differently than a filled one. Also whether or not either is sitting on a > surface and the density of that surface. In short, it really matters where > the force goes. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:43:04 -0500 From: nephalim1@netscape.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Swords cutting steel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Try searching in google under "bolo batallion" . -----Original Message----- From: Gerry Chenevert To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:12:38 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Swords cutting steel To tie back to FMA, I wonder how the Japanese fared against the Filipino warrior in bladed combat.  Can anyone suggest some reading material?  I knew an old manong who was in the islands during the Japanese occupation, but he didn't share too many stories of those times before he passed away.      _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:03:21 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Bruce Schneier Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Thanks for the succinct summary. What does Scheier say Homeland Security >et. al.should be really doing--better human intel on the terrorists, more >hi-tech screenings at airports, etc.? I would highly recommend subscribing to his free monthly newsletter - http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram.html Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:47:16 -0500 From: David Riggs To: Eskrima mail list Subject: [Eskrima] Subject: RE: What happened to abused swords in the Middle ages? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I posted the question re swords damaged in battle to a medieval history group. The following was the answer. "Don't have any sources off the top of my head, but I remember reading somewhere that swords that were broken would be ground down to be functional daggers, if there was suffiicient useful steel left. Likely anything salvagable was put to whatever function its remains could provide." >From where I sit this is sensible. The impact on my rattans always ends up with a damaged last third and I always cut them down to use in espada y daga drills. You might also remember that swords became thinner over time. Early swords were often glorified axes with thick spines or backs. Fluting and blood grooves came very late in their evolution. Many of the philipino knives I have used are thick and made of rather coarse metal. Chipping just becomes another serrated edge. Our knives and weapons like the malaysian kris are much thinner on the spine and ground to a fine edge. Sailors of the late 1800s didn¹t fear them much because they were so easily bent with a wrap of a short stick. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "John Johnson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Subject: RE: What happened to abused swords in the Middle ages? Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:43:58 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here is what i got from the medieval sword forum: "I'd be curious to learn what medieval armorers did with weapons after a major battle like say Agincourt. They must have assessed the blades and damage done to decide what was salvageable; if anyone has any sources I'd be interested." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > If I recall correctly Hilda Davidson stated that there was evidence that new cutting edges were welded on to damaged blades in 'The Sword in Anglo Saxon England'. I cannot remember her arguments or sources for this; In fact I'm not 100% sure that I've remembered the source correctly but it is worth reading this book as it is, IMO, superb. IP: 194.222.254.208 Marshal Member posted 12-05-2005 06:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A good book indeed. There is unfortunately little information on the banausic side of the armourer's business, at least until late in the MA. How individually-owned weapons would have been assessed and disposed of is an open question, probably decided by the owner or his captor if still alive. We know there was also a mass trade in weapons at certain times and places, as evidenced by some of the river finds of parcels of unmounted sword-blades Oakeshott mentions---probably originally transported in barrels. Many Japanese swords were reshaped after being chipped or otherwise damaged( or just for reasons of fashion ), cut down into tantos and wakizashis when ( presumably ) broken, and so forth. I'd call it a safe bet that this went on to some extent in the West, too. But there's a paucity of hard data on these things. Peace Out John >From: David Riggs >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: Eskrima mail list >Subject: [Eskrima] Subject: RE: What happened to abused swords in the >Middle ages? >Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:47:16 -0500 > >I posted the question re swords damaged in battle to a medieval history >group. The following was the answer. > > "Don't have any sources off the top of my head, but I remember reading >somewhere that swords that were broken would be ground down to be >functional daggers, if there was suffiicient useful steel left. Likely >anything salvagable was put to whatever function its remains could >provide." > >From where I sit this is sensible. The impact on my rattans always ends up >with a damaged last third and I always cut them down to use in espada y >daga >drills. > >You might also remember that swords became thinner over time. Early swords >were often glorified axes with thick spines or backs. Fluting and blood >grooves came very late in their evolution. > >Many of the philipino knives I have used are thick and made of rather >coarse >metal. Chipping just becomes another serrated edge. > >Our knives and weapons like the malaysian kris are much thinner on the >spine >and ground to a fine edge. > >Sailors of the late 1800s didn¹t fear them much because they were so easily >bent with a wrap of a short stick. >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:24:09 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Katana Testing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gerry and John, Apparently katanas were tested on Japanes criminals to determine if the blade was okay. The cut on the criminals were performed ritually and if the blade came out unscathed then then swordsmith was deemed to have forged a good blade. The criminals in a last act of defiance would eat small stones so that when they were cut up, the katana blade would be chipped when it hit the stones, the blade would then be considered unusable as it was not perfect. Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:46:25 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Katana Testing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Man, those guys had it almost as bad as the guy that actually volunteered to test shark suits! -Steve Kohn Peter Gow wrote: Gerry and John, Apparently katanas were tested on Japanes criminals to determine if the blade was okay. The cut on the criminals were performed ritually and if the blade came out unscathed then then swordsmith was deemed to have forged a good blade. The criminals in a last act of defiance would eat small stones so that when they were cut up, the katana blade would be chipped when it hit the stones, the blade would then be considered unusable as it was not perfect. Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:07:05 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 'Might have been due to the rifle... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think I owe everybody a correction. As far as I can remember it, the after-action accounts said that the Philippine heavy sword sliced through a rifle held in a high block position. It did not actually say which part of the rifle. I examined the picture of the M1903 Springfield in my copy of Guns & Ammo's 2005 Surplus Firearms Special Issue and visualized which part of the rifle could have been the point of impact of the sword cut. Interestingly, it appears to be either the receiver or the chamber portion of the barrel assembly (even I, however, will find it hard to swallow that the Philippine heavy sword can slice through the chamber portion of the barrel assembly). Furthermore, the same magazine also has this to say about the M1903: *"One extremely significant change occurred during WWI. It was discovered that the heat treatment of the M1903 rifle's receiver was poor in a significant but unknown percentage of the rifles. In many cases, the receiver and/or bolt had been heated to an excessive degree during treatment. This resulted in a weak receiver that could fail when firing standard rifle ammunition. The number of rifles with this problem was unknown because the only way to identify them required destructive testing. Even the receivers and bolts that did not get overheated often proved to be excessively brittle and prone to fail with overloaded ammunition or when gas entered the action from a split cartridge…. The cutoff serial numbers for the inferior single heat-treated actions that are potentially dangerous is 800,000 for Springfield Arsenal-made rifles and 285,507 for Rock IslandArsenal-made rifles." * I suspect that some of these defective M1903s somehow ended up in the hands of Philippine colonial units. This is probably why I have not personally seen any written account of a Philippine heavy sword-slicing-through rifle incident from the 1930s and onward. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 20:12:01 -0800 (PST) From: Bill McGrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] CHARITY SEMINAR & SWORD CUTTING Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Charity Seminar: The FMA Hurricane Survivor Benefit Seminar held this past Saturday in Fishkill, NY was a great success. I would like to thank Guro Rob Mulligan of Pananadata and Datu Rich Acosta of Kuntaw Kali Kruzada for taking time from their busy schedules to instruct at the seminar. Three instructors, teaching three arts in a round-robin format made for fast paced and enjoyable five hours. I would show a Pekiti single stick technique in corto range, followed by Guro Rob with a Pananadata largo technique, followed by Datu Rich with an Espada y Daga teachique. In addition to aiding a worthy cause, we all got to cross train in three excellent arts, make new friends and get a broader view of FMAs. All of us agreed that we would like to make this multiple instructor charity event a yearly occurrence. I should have some photos up on my website by this weekend (www.pekiti.com) also see: Guro Rob Mulligan’s website: http://my.name-services.com/62400/page99.htm Datu Rich Acosta’s website: http://kuntawkali.com/index.html Sword cutting: I was at a sword making seminar in upstate New York a few years back when swordmaker Paul Champagne showed a video of the Obata helmet cut. What mostly impressed me was the hard-edged katana flexing almost to the point that the curved blade was made straight as it impacted with the helmet. You can read more about this cut here: http://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~bhire/kabutowa.htm I spoke to Paul after the video and posed the following question: Here we have one of the best Japanese swordsmen in the world, using one of the best made katanas in the modern world and a helmet that was left with a 5 inch cut; now how deep would the cut have been if you took the average high school football player, gave him a 20 dollar axe and told him to have a go at the helmet. Paul said that due to the axe’s edge geometry and weight the cut would have been as good or better. The point of this being that swords are just pieces of steel crafted by men like you or I. They are not magic and the normal laws of physics still apply. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath PS. Here is the ARMA report on the 2000 sword making seminar: http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/Sword2000.htm Here is early info on the 2006 New England’s Bladesmith’s Guild knife making seminar in Ashokan, NY. http://www.tzknives.com/ashokan.html Here is a good general article about European swords that touches on the katana myth: http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/ancient.html And another: http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2004/jwmaart_shore_1004.htm And another: http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:26:11 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FMA in WWII Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So far, the most extensive account I have seen in an FMA book was that of GM Leo Giron who was a US Army commando in WWII. He even won the Bronze Star for his exploits. I think he wrote a very detailed account of his experience in his autobiography "Memories Ride the Ebb of Tide". Unfortunately, I didn't have the opportunity to read the book myself. I'm sure there might be others out there though. > Message: 4 > From: "Gerry Chenevert" > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:12:38 -0500 > Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Swords cutting steel > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > To tie back to FMA,I wonder how the Japanese fared against the Filipino > warrior in bladed combat. Can anyone suggest some reading material?I > knew an old manong who was in the islands during the Japanese occupation, > but he didn't share too many stories of those times before he passed > away. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest